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Dose - Pure MDMA dosage question

Discussion in 'Ecstasy & MDMA' started by ch00se, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. ch00se

    ch00se Newbie

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    Quick question,

    I took 0.5g mdma, I feel good but I want to know is this a monging dose and would taking less (for next time) be better?
     
  2. User-126494

    User-126494 Platinum Member

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    MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

    MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight.

    ... or how to hit the "sweet spot" without too much trouble.

    V. 1.0 - Initial Version
    V. 1.1 - Added information on Max dosages and LD50 information.


    I have seen lots of numbers floating around along with tales of heroic dosing. SWIM put his hamster to work on figuring out what the optimal dosage is for MDMA. In the interest of gathering all the information together, the hamster has made a fairly exhaustive search of the relevant sites.


    Let's ask PiHKAL...
    The hamster began with PiHKAL Entry #109 MDMA which states:
    This states a dosage of 1.5mg/Kg body mass followed by .5mg/Kg body mass at 1.5-2 hours following. Further it goes on to state that additional boosters will provide diminishing returns. Something which SWIM's hamster experimented on himself here:

    Initial dose, topping up over extended period - thoughts?

    The hamster's results seemed to confirm what is in PiHKAL. Needless to say the hamster really isn't too excited about trying to reproduce the results. It seems that heroic dosing just really isn't worth it. However, some hamsters may feel differently and are entitled to their opinion, however, Mr. Hamster thinks the side-effects and potential neurotoxicity outweigh any added benefits.



    What about Erowid?
    Checking Erwoid the following information on dosage can be found:

    MDMA Dosage by Erowid

    Their dosage table is as follows:
    Column 1 Column 2
    Oral MDMA Dosages
    Threshold 30 mg
    Light 40 - 75 mg
    Common (small or sensitive people) 60 - 90 mg
    Common (most people) 75 - 125 mg
    Common (large or less sensitive people) 110 - 150 mg
    Strong 150 - 200 mg
    Heavy 200 + mg



    This is in line with the mg/Kg body mass calculation which the hamster has done another chart for.



    Isn't there a place called DanceSafe?
    However, the hamster had a few more sites to check tole DanceSafe on their page:

    Ecstacy MDMA Drug Info


    But wait, there's this thing called Lycaeum...
    Ok, So there's one more source which seems to agree on the typical dose. Before we're done, let's stop over at Lycaeum and see what they have to say on the subject.

    Lycaeum > Leda > MDMA
    But hold on! DEA analysis says the typical dose is generally 75-100mg based on confiscated tablets. This is what the DEA discovered in the actual MDMA content of the tablets they have confiscated and in no way have anything to do with the recommended dosage. This is just a bit of slight-of-hand on Lycaeum's part (shame on them…)



    So, what does this all mean?
    So, putting what we know together the average sized hamster weighing 180lbs. would set an initial dose of about 120mg. Using this handy table..

    Column 1
    Dosages by weight, including booster.
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5
    Column 1
    Weight lb.
    Kg Body Mass Initial 1.5mg/Kg Booster .5mg/Kg Total Dose
    90lb 40.9Kg 61mg 20mg 82mg
    100lb 45.5Kg 68mg 23mg 91mg
    110lb 50.0Kg 75mg 25mg 100mg
    120lb 54.5Kg 82mg 27mg 109mg
    130lb 59.1Kg 89mg 30mg 119mg
    140lb 63.6Kg 95mg 32mg 127mg
    150lb 68.2Kg 102mg 34mg 136mg
    160lb 72.7Kg 109mg 36mg 145mg
    170lb 77.3Kg 116mg 39mg 155mg
    180lb 81.8Kg 123mg 41mg 164mg
    190lb 86.4Kg 130mg 43mg 173mg
    200lb 90.9Kg 136mg 45mg 181mg
    210lb 95.5Kg 143mg 48mg 191mg
    220lb 100.0Kg 150mg 50mg 200mg
    230lb 104.5Kg 157mg 52mg 209mg
    240lb 109.1Kg 164mg 55mg 219mg
    250lb 113.6Kg 170mg 57mg 227mg
    [/TABLE][/CENTER]

    This table is completely in line with what the recommended dosages on all the published sites. The chart follows the "recommended therapeutic" dosage of 1.5mg/Kg body mass for initial dose and a .5mg/Kg body mass booster. Assuming a light weight hamster of 90lbs, the doses agree at 60mg.

    Take note the LD50 for MDMA is 80mg/Kg. That would mean for the smallest mass on this table it would be 3.28g for a hamster weighing 41Kg. For the largest, the 113.5Kg hamster it would be an LD50 dose of 9.08g. These numbers come nowhere close to harmful levels as the recommended dosage for the 113.6Kg hamster is 227mg which is a mere fraction of the LD50 for the 41Kg hamster.

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5
    Hamster Size Weight lb. Kg Body Mass Total Dosage LD50 Dose
    Small 90lb 40.9Kg 82mg 3280mg
    Large 250lb 113.6Kg 227mg 9080mg


    Even confusing the total dosage for the largest hamster for the smallest would at worst increase the chances of some of the "bad" effects of the MDMA, and only slightly raise neurotixicity probability.

    Hopefully now that people can see the numbers, this clears some of the fog surrounding the dosages of MDMA, assuming what you's hamster has is MDMA.

    I am proud of his hamster at gathering all this information together and presenting it here as an educational tool for all. The hamster views this as a work in progress and welcomes any feedback or additional information to include. PM SWIM and he'll pass along the information to the hamster or just post comments following this.

    Be well, be safe, have fun...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2010
  3. Priapism9

    Priapism9 Silver Member

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    Re: MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

    Well you know what I am going to say. Body weight should not be the only deciding factor. Level of experience should be given *equal* if not greater priority. I think it was very wise of Erowid to take the time to differentiate between a newbie and a veteran. There's a reason for it. And here is that reason once again:

    Given the fact that 1 tablet equals 60-90mg of MDMA and 1 tablet is sufficient for the vast majority of new users, this proves that the body weight method is erroneous for people who are not veterans. While a 180lb veteran may require 125mg + 40mg booster just to "feel the magic", this is not at all the case for a new user. Swim still benefits from a half tablet, and rarely needs more than 1 full tablet. In fact, if a user is responsible in their usage, that user could remain a "newbie" forever, never graduating to higher doses and always being impressed by 1 tablet (60-90mg).

    I have conclusively proven time and time again that new users overshoot the sweet spot at 125mg. Without exception. The same individuals go crazy with euphoria on a single tablet (60-90mg). I think that settles the matter in swims mind.

    There is also a health issue on the table. Neurotoxicity is sigifnicantly reduced (as are health issues and ER visits) if the dose is kept low. Less is more with MDMA. I think its irresponsible to recommend a brand new user down 125+40mg on his or her first try. That is telling a new user to down 2-3 tablets for their first experience. Way too much. My first experience was on only a half tablet and he felt incredible. Half tablet equals 30mg. I weigh 185. Not surprisingly Erwoid comes in with the accurate information on that as well - stating that 30mg is the minimum thresshold for an experience with MDMA.

    So there's more to consider here than body weight. Great collection of data however, and very helpful, however if it were my post, which its not, I would give significant relevance to the "newbie versus veteran" scale.

    -P-
     
  4. User-126494

    User-126494 Platinum Member

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    Re: MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

    Agreed, however, these are the recommended dosages. Metabolism is also a key factor. Frequency of use should be a factor along with any other medications one is taking at the time too.

    Where is this number coming from?

    However You mentioned that a single tab which "according to the DEA" contains 75-100mg (figure probably more like 90mg). whcih would probably be fine for a hamster from about 110lbs up to about 160lbs. At least for the initial dose and should have a pretty good time.

    The chart has a different "sweet spot" for each body mass. 125mg just happens to be for a hamster weighing about 180lb. How much did these hamsters weigh?

    Also the dosages here are, even at the high end, nowhere near approaching levels where one would expect neurotoxicity. Those are where hamsters start hitting "heroic" dosages like 5 tabs in a night or more. This is just a waste. Also the LD50 is very high, at 80mg/Kg body weight, so the chart if anything errs on the side of caution at 1.5mg/Kg, and doesn't exceed the "normal" therapeutic dosages. For a 90lb hamster, the LD50 would be approximately 3.275g. That's huge.

    The data from the various sources do not disagree, if they are compared. Forgot to gets the MAPS data, but figured that 5 sources would be enough, especially since they all agree.

    The other factor SWIM left out was frequency of use. This plays into tolerance as well as neurotoxicity. You brings up some good points and I was thinking about making some modifications to the recommendations along with adding some information WRT ROA.

    SWIM and his hamster welcome you's suggestions and will try to make revisions as soon as they are a bit more thought out. But at least this was a good place to start.

    Be well...
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
  5. Terrapinzflyer

    Terrapinzflyer MDMA, RC & News Forums Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: MDMA - Determining the recommended dosage based on body weight

    An interesting side note here- for therapeutic use the dosage is widely standardized ~120mg~ . In the large MAPS sponsored study in the US they actually had to justify this to the FDA, as the standard in research is to use a dose based on body weight . But they sucessfully argued that from years of research with MDMA as well as ancedotal reports, a dose of ~120mg proved most effective without regard to body mass and without negative effects on smaller subjects.


    EDIT adding a link to the related discussion: Dose - Safe amount of MDMA per dose?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  6. Synthesised

    Synthesised Titanium Member

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    I think a simple mg/kg value is really a gross oversimplification which leads to very high doses for heavier people that are unnecessary. A static dose isn't really appropriate either.

    I've seen that a really good rule of thumb for MDMA dosage is (half the user's weight in kg + 90) to get dose in mg. For a 70kg person this is 125mg of pure MDMA.

    It accounts for weight but also accounts for the fact that there are other important factors at play which affect the dose.


    Some other things to note are that allometric scaling must be used to compare doses in different species - doses are actually more dependent on body surface area (indirectly of course). This brings the LD50 values much closer to the lethal doses we observe in humans.

    http://clymer.altervista.org/minor/allometry.html
     
  7. elunicotomas

    elunicotomas Silver Member

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    Hi there,

    I was looking for some more "accurate" information regarding MDMA dosage and I have a couple of questions:
    • That table from Erowid, where do they took those values from?(see Erowid's dosage table attached)
    • In the site RollSafe they say that "Weight does not have a high impact on dosage for MDMA." but I can't find where do they took that information from. (see RollSafe dosage table attached)
    • Is there any research on this topic?

    Thanks!
     
  8. lilyofthevalley

    lilyofthevalley Silver Member

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    A lot of the information on this post is "accurate" the original poster taking .5 all at once is not a wise idea. Throughout the evening, fine. But there have been people who end up in the hospital for less, it's important to pay attention to body temperature. Just as a rule I've always listened to never do more than .2 at a time. Have done .5 perhaps throughout a 6-7hr period but definitely not in one shot. Sorry, lol I don't have any scientific backing just personal experience
     
  9. elunicotomas

    elunicotomas Silver Member

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    Hi,

    Thanks, but I was wondering if those dosage recommendations where based on anything more than user experiencies :p
     
  10. Damocles

    Damocles Titanium Member

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    Dosage recommendations are based upon Shulgin's research in PiHKAL and backed up with the "approved" therapeutic dosages which MAPS is using for clinical trials. With MDMA, it appears that "less is more".

    Also, if you read the post again, reference is given to Erowid and others.

    Though the FDA approved a dose of 120mg regardless of body mass is somewhat counter to their usual approval process, it was agreed upon to use that dose for the current clinical trials being conducted right now.

    More research needs to be done to determine whether there is a relationship between optimal dose and body mass, but due to the legal status of MDMA, it is difficult to get approval for research, and no studies have been done to this point as far as I know.

    Be responsible...
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
  11. nachofish

    nachofish Tickling the Amygdala Silver Member Donating Member

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    If there are two people who know (or knew) enough about MDMA to determine an ideal dose, they would be Rick Doblin from MAPS and Shulgin.

    I know of so many people who eyeball their dose by just scraping together some MDMA that looks like a normal dose to them.

    125 mg, in powder or crystal, looks like a very small quantity, so people tend to just take more. I've had some strong experience with 80-90 mg.
     
  12. elunicotomas

    elunicotomas Silver Member

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    Thanks Damocles and Nachofish,

    I sent an email to Erowids people and they sent me a lot of researchs and papers regarding the subject, now I have to sit down an read
     
  13. CLERIC-SOUL

    CLERIC-SOUL Newbie

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    Back when ecstasy first hit the market about 12 years ago I was a heavy user 2 to 4 pills every weekend well for me that's alot for about 2 straight years / with light shows etc. And I'm telling you if you don't stop you'll start seeing permanent tracers even years later like a strand of light out of nowhere then gone ...comes and goes so it can play a permanent role in vision thank GOD I stopped before I got too bad and if you overdose in a ( calm setting) such as no crazy huge parties with alot of people and light shows everywhere you tend to be more aware of your state of being and your body will naturally vomit it up. If that setting is not there you might not feel it til it's too late and O.D. in any case long periods of use can and most likely take a permanent effect on you
     
  14. The Grand Boob

    The Grand Boob Newbie

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    Thats a pretty heafty dose buddy, I've done .5 before but it was over the course of a night not all at once, but to answer your question if you wait a while before rolling again and take around .2 I think you'll see you're in for a pretty good time, have fun and be safe man