Questions for you brilliant folks

Discussion in 'Adderall' started by MendozatheJEW, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. MendozatheJEW

    MendozatheJEW Newbie

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    Hey guys, I am new to this forum stuff. I have been looking around for the best forum to ask questions on for months now, and the group here seems like the most knowledgeable, smart and unbiased group of people I have met. So let me get to the point, I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and while antidepressants barely did anything, with Adderall I was feeling the way I am sure all of you feel. This amazing sense of freedom, concentration and peace. I don't care what people tell me about the word "addiction" because the truth is that I am much more stable on it then off it, I and I am sure many of you guys are the polar opposite of an addict, we get more work done, feel and sleep better, and all around feel like smarter, more productive people. So anyway, I began adderall about a year and a half ago, and was prescribed it. I had gone on and off of it since then, with different psychopharms thinking it was necessary/un necessary, etc.
    So here are my questions:
    1.) I have found that my tolerance has gone up drastically, what started as 20mg XR that would get me going, I now need to crush up 40mg just to get the same feeling, if any. I have been back on it for only a month, after a three month break. What do you think is the best way to lower your tolerance again?
    2.) Has anyone heard of any natural substances? I heard about magnesium working? Also anything with baking soda increasing effects?
    3.) If I need to take a break, how long should it be for?
    4.) Has anyone had the desire to stay up all night doing work or just reading? Like it is more enjoyeable?
    5.) I have, at times, taken 2XR's crushed every 6 hours, for like 36 hours, till I sleep the next night, can this effect my tolerance?
    6.) Do I have to double the dosage of XR to get the same effect as when it is crushed up? Ex. if I need two crushed XR's, is that the same as taking 40mg XR and having longer effects?
    7.) If I take it with Temazepam, I find it seems to smooth out the edges, almost like the concentration is better with it. Can this be nullifying the effects?
    8.) Can I lower my tolerance by taking just one XR each day for awhile, or should I stop all together?
    9.) I am taking Lamictal too, does this interfere with the effectiveness of the drug? Do you know of any depression meds that help to increase the effectiveness of Adderall?

    Any and all info would be greatly appreciated, even if it for me to stop it for a little while. I don't wanna have to up it any more than I am, or go to extreme measures to feel the concentration, motivation, etc.
     
  2. Blur

    Blur Newbie

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    1) Acute tolerance rapidly develops to amphetamines. Actually tolerance is not even an accurate word to use here. Most drug tolerance is due to receptor downregulation, receptor endocytosis(?) (basically the receptor withdraws into the cell so nothing will bind to it, and a plethora of other biological phenomena, BUT, it can be overcome by increasing the dose. Opiates, benzos, barbiturates to a certain point, alcohol all show this behavior. The neurons have adapted to a previously effective dose, but a higher dose will always produce an effect.

    With amphetamine, the "tolerance" to a previous effective dose is not similar to opiate or benzo tolerance at all. Amphetamine prevents the reuptake of dopamine (responsible for the high, focus, energy etc.) as well as promoting the release of dopamine from dopaminergic neurons. A couple of days of high dose (~100 mg) amphetamine usage can completely deplete dopamine stores in neuronal vesicles. Taking more drug will do nothing. You can't stimulate the release of something that isn't there. It does the same thing to noradrenaline but dopamine is what we're interested in here. As You wasn't taking very high doses SWIM's wild ass speculations as to what is going on are as follows:

    1) Gradual depletion of dopamine stores via low level amp usage
    2) Damage to dopaminergic neurons via oxidative stress due to amp
    3) Subjectively used to 20 mg. (This happens with SWIM) (I am so used to having something in SWIM's system that subjectively I feel normal as if the drug is doing nothing. But it is, just take it away, especially benzos.
    4) Excess Ca++ influx through NMDA receptors on ventral tegental dopaminergic neurons (An area of the brain rich with dopamine producing neurons). Results in lowered production of dopamine .

    2)
    Magnesium is an NMDA receptor antagonist. It may help with #4 in the list above. Depends upon whether or not it antagonizes the NMDA receptor on those specific neurons. Baking soda is just a weak base that will basify your stomach. This will increase the absorption of amphetamines as well as decrease their excretion. SWIM prefers regular antacids {baking soda plain or in water tastes like shit)Take on an empty stomach 30 minutes before dosing.

    3)
    A break is you's best bet. At 40 mg you's "tolerance" is rather mild. 3 days or so. The longer the better. Dopamine is synthesized from Tyrosine. Make sure you get enough protein in your diet.

    4) Ya, I wouldn't be typing this post otherwise.

    5) Yep. The more You takes per unit time the greater the dopamine depletion and vice versa.

    6) If You means euphoria when You says effect then yes. Euphoria is directly correlated to how fast dopamine levels are rising in the brain. Not the absolute magnitude of dopamine levels. I am unfamiliar with the XR formulation (the pill matrix, and is unsure how effective crushing is in terms of absorbing more amp at once). Switch to regular adderall if possible. Crushing these WILL result in absorbing more amp at once.

    7.) Those two drugs work on two different neurotransmitter systems. Yeah, the temazzies will reduce overall brain stimulation, but won't affect the dopamine release by the amphetamine. SWIM regularly combines benzos and amp. I get the benefits of increased dopamine along with minimized jitteriness caused by noradrenaline. SWIM also gets benzo tolerance and generally uses more amp. You can't win :p

    8)Yup, though stopping completely for a few days would work much more quickly.

    9.)No idea


    SWIM's recommendation. Drop the XR, get regular Adderall if at all possible, as it's already "extended release" due to the mixture of different amphetamine salts that are absorbed through the stomach lining at different rates (basifying your stomach will minimize this). Adderall XR is just another drug company gimmick that is more expensive. Take a few days off. Eat enough protein. Take a good multi-vitamin and maybe supplement with extra magnesium. There are other NMDA antagonists but they are prescription drugs, well, except for one, and I wouldn't recommend playing around with them just to possibly reduce amp tolerance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2006
  3. MendozatheJEW

    MendozatheJEW Newbie

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    Okay, I understand this and greatly appreciates the quick and thorough response. I am concerned because I had taken a two day break before this night's dosage. However I had taken one crushed XR four hours before the initial 40mg dosage. Could this have effected SWIM's response to the larger, later dosage? SWIM notices that even when taking lower dosages earlier in the day, the effect of later dosages is greatly decreased. Any idea if this is normal?
     
  4. MendozatheJEW

    MendozatheJEW Newbie

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    One more question, I also have about 50 pseudophedrine tabs, any idea if this can work to either supplement or replace temporarily the XR? And whether taking this when off XR will prevent the quick decrease in tolerance that I want?
     
  5. Blur

    Blur Newbie

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    Yes. Acutely, amphetamine tolerance shoots through the roof. The one adderall XR You took 4 hours before the 40 mg dose depleted dopamine levels enough so that the 40 mg dose had a greatly diminished effect. If You hadn't take that 1 XR the 40 mg dose would have been felt much more strongly. Chronically though, "tolerance" to amphetamines really doesn't develop *much*. If You gives themselves a several day break inbetween usage, You can achieve the same effect with the same dose for a LONG time(years). The worst thing You can do is take multiple high doses daily, for a few consecutive days. This is what causes oxidative damage to dopaminergic neurons and *most likely* result in some permanent dopaminergic neuron damage (lots of evidence for and against but experience tells SWIM that permanent damage does occur). Basically, You is better off taking one large dose daily (don't overdo it, by You posts, I wouldn't recommend more than 40-50 mg adderall at once even though it is adderall XR), than taking multiple, smaller doses if euphoria and focus is what You is after. Regular Adderall lasts a long time anyway and with the XR, one dose a day should be enough. Basically, after the first dose, each consecutive dose does less and less until You reaches the point where the drug does nothing because neural dopamine stores are completely depleted. I have done this on 2-3 day binges. A while back, on a 3 day binge, a 200 mg dose of adderall on day 3 had no effect whatsoever. I was basically wasting it, not to mention the toll it takes on the body. SWIM tries to avoid amphetamines now (too many bad health effects) but if SWIM still used, he would do a recreational dose (maybe 80 mg Adderall IR crushed w/antacid for SWIM) once, and then go at least 3 days before dosing again.

    No to the pseudoephedrine. Maybe try ephedrine if You has to, but I would avoid taking ephedrine on off days. Works the same way as amphetamine but less potent and has more shitty peripheral effects (bp, pulse, sweating, etc.). It will increase the time to replenish dopamine stores as well. Modafinil is a good psychostimulant You may want to consider. Hell, coffee and green tea especially (don't laugh) actually work pretty damn well for focus and energy.
     
  6. howlongisthenight

    howlongisthenight Newbie

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    If you take adderall at the regular dosage amount......then is the chance for long-term dopamine damage minimal? That just seems like such a bad side effect for a drug given to so many kids and teens.
     
  7. Blur

    Blur Newbie

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    That would be SWIM's guess. Amphetamine has been thoroughly studied as it's an old drug. Long-term, low-level dosing will probably result in the drug producing less effect (and normally over time the dosage is raised) over time, but a normal prescribed dose is probably not enough to cause the complete depletion of dopamine stores that I was talking about. To the best of SWIM's knowledge, it's the high-dose, multiple day binges that exhaust dopamine levels in dopaminergic neurons that do that and cause the oxidative stress that leads to significant cell damage. Lower doses over a long period of time probably do it also. But the oxidative stress is most likely so miniscule that the benefit of the drug therapy outweighs a little stress on dopaminergic neurons (at least in mind of the parent when they see the children getting better grades in school and behavioral improvements). Personally, I believe amphetamine is not healthy period... but it's the dose that determines the poison :p If I could go back in time he definately would have used it in Grad school. The drug has alot of proven positive attributes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2006
  8. MendozatheJEW

    MendozatheJEW Newbie

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    I had another Q, I had been taken some alka seltzer before and during adderall usage, SWIM notices a different feeling, more rushed, more pressure on chest that normally I didn't feel, seems like a much more increased feeling of speedy, less calm feeling. Can the sodium bicarbonate make SWIM feel like this? Has anyone else felt like this when taking it? Can any of these new sensations be linked to this?
     
  9. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

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    Amphetamines have been known to increase the analgesic effects of aspirin - which is a component of alka-seltzer. So this might play some part in the noted effect.