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Extraction - Scopolamine experiment questions

Discussion in 'Nightshades' started by =SKA=, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. =SKA=

    =SKA= Silver Member

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    SWIM has a friend that wants to try Datura. Despite the many warnings SWIM gave him about nightshades he still wants to do it.
    SWIM offered to be a babysitter to him during the trial and if need be strap him down and/or administer Pilocarpine.
    SWIM has also proposed him to take extracted scopolamine instead of making Datura/Brugmansia tea so at least he can dose more accurately and safely.

    So SWIM would like to know a relatively simple(meaning no need for intricate lab equipment or generally inaccessable chemicals) and pure method for extracting scopolamine from Datura/Brugmansia. SWIM wants the scopolamine in dry powder form, without fats/oils, as pure as possible.
    SWIM's friend has (plenty of) dried Brugmansia flowers and plentyfull Datura Inoxia seeds from which Scopolamine could be extracted.

    Also SWIM would like to know what is a good plant source of Pilocarpine(Tropane alkaloid's anti-dote) and how to extract Pilocarpine from this plant. Does Pilocarpine need to be extracted or would a Tea made from the Pilocarpine plant-material be an effective Datura-antidote?
    SWIM wants to have Pilocarpine around during the trial.

    Help would be much appreciated.
     
  2. Joe_Pinko

    Joe_Pinko Silver Member

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    There is already a (closed) thread in this sub-forum entitled "Datura Extraction", which purports to give a procedure for isolating the alkaloids.

    Sorry, but SWIM doesn't feel comfortable even providing a link to the procedure.

    In SWIM's opinion, SWIY might-as-well ask other strangers on the interweb, "How can I rig a machine to fire a bullet and miss my head by a fraction of an inch?"
     
  3. =SKA=

    =SKA= Silver Member

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    SWIM knows that taking Datura and similair plants is close to playing Russian Roulette, but hasn't been able to convince his friend of this.
    However the ignorant, but kind fool has made up his mind about it and won´t let SWIM discourage and stop him from doing Datura.
    So the least SWIM can do is work on harm reduction. SWIM could leave him alone to do it and possibly ingest fatal doses of Datura Tea, but would rather assist him and reduce risks by cautious, accurate dosing and babysitting him.

    SWIM did look around, but couldn't actually find a method to extract pure scopolamine only. It seems to be a sensored procedure, which in SWIM's opinion is hardily contributing to Harm Reduction. SWIM understands the fear surrounding this plant all too well.

    Let SWIM make it clear that it is his friend that has the spectaculairly bad idea to try Datura: The very sight of the plant makes SWIM chill and seeing a Datura Tea would be enough to send SWIM running away at high speed, screaming in terror. So no need to convince SWIM how evil this plant is. He knows all too well.
    He once had a minor affair with Lady Datura and since then she convinced him Thoroughly to fearfully respect her and stay far away from her.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2009
  4. =SKA=

    =SKA= Silver Member

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    SWIM has a bunch of ether bottles lying around and wonders: Would an Ether extraction of Dried Brugmansia Flowers and Datura Inoxia seeds be effective at extracting pure Scopolamine?
     
  5. =SKA=

    =SKA= Silver Member

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    Someone was so kind to help SWIM out by telling SWIM how scopolamine is extracted.
    Once SWIM has performed the Scopolamine-experiment with his friend, he will report back results and notes that he wrote down during the experiment with people's here so that the resulting information can be of help in harm reduction to others.

    If a friend of SWIY's is fascinated by Nightshades and is stubborn by having made up his/her mind to do it: Aid them the way SWIM did with his stubborn friend, by persuading them to not make nightshade flower, leaf or seed-tea but instead extracting pure scopolamine for them, dosing it really carefully and babysitting them(if need be be able to strap them down, sedate them with a benzo to abbort disastrous nightshade deliriums...etc And VERY important: Have Pilocarpine ready.

    Now SWIM would like to find a Pilocarpine(Scopolamine poisoning anti-dote) source plant and figure out how to extract pure Pilocarpine from it. SWIM bets that a search round these forums or on google would probably give enough information, however if someone is willing to let me know this here in this topic that would be handy nevertheless.
     
  6. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    =SKA=: Maybe it's time to tell your friend that if they feel so damn hellbent on being stupid, they may need to find new friends.

    Have they considered Henbane Beer? As far as forms of ingestion go, this really seems to be one of the safest, most time tested means. As long as you put it away after you finish your agreed upon dose that is (seems it makes you thirsty for more, leading to OD issues).

    The biggest issue I've seen with extraction, is it's still difficult to determine just how much alkaloid one has for dosing. At least with kitchen chemistry. If the recipe and equipment is good enough, well...

    An ally of mine in the pharmaceutical field recently got their hands on some pharm grade nightshade alkaloids, they're rare, but with the dose printed on the package, FAR FAR safer then any thing else.

    If you're friend is still hellbent, make them take this series of experiments over a few months, no more then a week and a half between experiments, starting at VERY low doses, gradually increasing. If nothing happens for the first few times, that's not an issue. This way when the very first effects start to show, they'll be aware of them. This is how Shulgin tests novel compounds. Under no circumstances should a first round of experiments be at the level of an "active dose".
     
  7. =SKA=

    =SKA= Silver Member

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    Thanks for the help and concern. Shulgin's way is the way to go.

    SWIM was wondering: Couldn't one be very exact about the dose Scopolamine administered when the scopolamine was extracted from transdermal Motionsickness patches? Or would such an extraction actually be more impure than extracting it from Brugmansia flowers or Datura innoxia seeds?
     
  8. doingdadope

    doingdadope Silver Member

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    If swim has access to the patches then it would be safer by a long shot, as the patches contain the same amount of scopolamine every time and no need separating the other Tropane alkaloids because they are not present. Also any inactive ingredients left in your extract from the patches shouldn't pose to much of a problem, as the scopolamine would be reaching a toxic dose before the inactives. (swims just guessing on this.)
     
  9. 69Ron

    69Ron Titanium Member

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    The main danger of extracting scopolamine is the potency of it.

    Scopolamine can soak right into your skin. You could easily absorb it right through your fingers while working to extract it! It’s very dangerous.

    There are extraction techs out there. I’ve found them on the net. I think they should be hard to get for a reason. Only very careful responsible people should have access to that information.

    Using scopolamine for delirium is unwise. The dose needed for delirium is very close to a lethal dose. Scopolamine is useful for motion sickness when used in safe doses. Using it for delirium is just way too dangerous. I would do my best to talk the person out of it. Even experienced shamans die from using Datura and similar plants containing this alkaloid. I think that gives you some idea of just how dangerous it is to use delirium causing doses. Anything above 1.5 mg of scopolamine is considered very dangerous. Delirium doesn’t normally occur until you pass that dosage level and get into the near fatal dosage level.

    I am not trying to scare anyone. SWIM uses Datura inoxia seeds often, usually 5 seeds, for motion sickness and thinks they are the best thing for this. For this purpose they are fantastic and cause no mental effects at all. They contain nearly pure scopolamine. They are valuable beyond belief for motion sickness. But to produce delirium, you honestly need to take a near fatal overdose. I’m not joking about that. That is so dangerous. Scopolamine is not safe in psychoactive doses, but is relatively safe in pharmaceutical doses. Scopolamine is used by NASA for motion sickness. They use safe doses only. They use it because it is the best drug for that purpose. None of the astronauts ever get delirious from it. They know how to use it properly and never exceed the maximum safe dosage. I recommend not pushing it with this drug.

    Use only safe medicinal doses. Never attempt to use scopolamine for psychoactive purposes, because by doing so, you enter the near fatal dosage range.
     
  10. Erytheia

    Erytheia Silver Member

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    SWIM is a little surprised. While it's true that extracting scopolamine is not something to be done in one's kitchen, scopolamine is still used in many countries as a treatment for motion-sickness. Certainly in the UK, and SWIM would be amased were anyone to have trouble importing it to any other EU country, though it would be up to them to find a source.

    Each tablet contains a precisely measured dose (300micrograms) and, though it's highly discouraged, SWIM has taken a full packet of 12 pills on at least a dozen separate occasions without any effects beyond sedation and very mild euphoria (and the physical side effects, of course).

    SWIM has only experienced full delirium once from scopolamine alone and would refer anyone interested to the big bold text in the previous post. She remembers nothing of the three days following a dose of five times her usual. The only use for large doses of scopolamine is... frankly, there's no good use for it. It's even a messy, uncertain way to make a suicide attempt.

    POSTSCRIPT: SWIM has, for her own reasons, re-read this post and feels there is an explanation (exaggeration) to be made..."[...]and the physical side-effects" is a term SWIM used in her initial post. It's very important to understand that these physical (side)effects are, in fact, the core aspect of the tropane-toxic-experience. That is to say, a dessicated mouth, an inability to sweat, pupils so dilated as to inhibit your ability to focus on text.... Were SWIY to take SWIM's usual dose of scopolamine they would experience all these toxic effects, aswell as being sedated to a degree that they're likely to fall asleep for approximately 4-8hrs and, if they're lucky, a codeine-like euphoria. Any other aspect is almost guaranteed to be negative.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010
  11. bencamp1973

    bencamp1973 Newbie

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    {SWIM was wondering: Couldn't one be very exact about the dose Scopolamine administered when the scopolamine was extracted from transdermal Motionsickness patches? Or would such an extraction actually be more impure than extracting it from Brugmansia flowers or Datura innoxia seeds? If swim has access to the patches then it would be safer by a long shot, as the patches contain the same amount of scopolamine every time and no need separating the other Tropane alkaloids because they are not present. Also any inactive ingredients left in your extract from the patches shouldn't pose to much of a problem, as the scopolamine would be reaching a toxic dose before the inactives. (swims just guessing on this.) }

    How do you exact Scopolamine from the transdermal Motionsickness patches?
     
  12. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    ^ Did you read any of this thread? These are deadly poisons. Extracting and concentrating them is a bad idea to begin with and you want to ask random people on the internet for advice on how to do so? Most of whom have no chemical or toxicological backgrounds at all.

    The patches themselves can be used with a little know-how, but thoroughly do the research. And get it out of your head to do any kind of extraction with anything this poisonous! Especially Datura! There's a LOT more than scopolamine in Datura. Stay away from it. Read some more in the Nightshades forum and you'll start to understand why.

    This is a harm reduction site. There are plenty of other ways to get a thrill and many safer substances to play with. Take a look around the Ethnobotanicals Forum. There's some interesting stuff there and it's MUCH safer.
     
  13. gnbradford

    gnbradford Silver Member

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    In Unilateral mydriasis due to Angel’s Trumpet there is the following

    Hyoscyamine, atropine and scopolamine occurred in all
    the corolla samples, while in the calyx only scopolamine was
    detected.

    Does anyone know if this applies to all Brugmansia suaveolens or was this a unique plant.
     
  14. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    I'd like to see a citation on that analysis before making any comment. Personally it sounds flawed, highly highly flawed. Also, this is not going to be true of other species of burgmansia, if it is a proper analysis.

    If you can't upload the paper as an attachment (we don't do outside links) you can PM me and exchange the file else where and I'll post it
     
  15. gnbradford

    gnbradford Silver Member

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    Here it is.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. psychonaut2000

    psychonaut2000 Newbie

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    As previously mentioned most nightshades, even ones with little/no other alkaloids besides the desired scopolamine, are extremely dangerous. Anyone with even a vague understanding of belladonna alkaloids would'nt dare allow someone they care for to consume any form of these compounds without being advised by a doctor. I would described a peron who ingests any of these plants/extracts as suicidal or a prime example of evolution in action. Anyone who eats poison for fun deserves a spot in Darwin's junk pile.
    But in the interest of "harm reduction" i have a suggestion. The ripe fruit of the horsenettle. Herbalists cook them and use them as a sedative/antispasmatic. Though i'm unsure the exact chemical, or lack there of, responsible. But ive read it was because the ripe fruit contains no solanine, hyoscyamine,and atropine. I assume the sedative action is a result of scopolamine. DO NOT Take MY WORD FOR IT. Dont want swim to die. Trust me if u let him eat datura it might be the last time u see him. Also, diphenhydramine is scopolamine in it's analog form and the doses are pre-measured. Bennadryl/anythingPM is how it's sold OTC. Using these types of drugs resreationally is very dangerous and the high produced is not worth it. no euphoria. infact dysforia would be more likely. AFOM has permanent brain damage from bittersweet nightshade poisoning. He will sh#t his pants for the rest of his life. My point? There are fates worse than death. Nature is a creul mistress dont tempt her. Consider the fact that these plants evolved to make these compounds to prevent being eaten. Dont eat them. a duh.
     
  17. gnbradford

    gnbradford Silver Member

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    I long had the attitude avoid Datura at all costs. Five years ago I moved to Iquitos. Peru and have since consumed a lot of Ayahuasca. Most Ayahuasca brews contain at least a little Toe(Brugmansia suaveolens). Toe and its consumption have been part of the culture here for a very long time.

    I recently came across


    Scopolamine-New anti-depressant starts working rapidly-National Institute of Health Study

    March 3, 2010


    Washington, March 2 (IANS) Existing anti-depressant treatments require three to four weeks to become effective, but a new drug seems to produce a rapid improvement in mood, say researchers.
    Scopolamine temporarily blocks the muscarinic cholinergic receptor, thought to be overactive in people suffering from depression.
    Wayne Drevets and Maura Furey of the National Institute of Health (NIH) recruited outpatients with major depressive disorder who were randomly assigned to receive a placebo and then scopolamine treatment o vice versa, in a double-blinded design so that neither the researchers nor the patients knew which treatment they were receiving.
    ‘Scopolamine was found to reduce symptoms of depression within three days of the first administration. In fact, participants reported that they experienced relief from their symptoms by the morning after the first administration of drug,’ explained Furey.
    ‘Moreover, one-half of participants experienced full symptom remission by the end of the treatment period,’ added Furey.
    ‘Finally, participants remained well during a subsequent placebo period, indicating that the anti-depressant effects persist for at least two weeks in the absence of further treatment,’ he said.
    John Krystal, editor of Biological Psychiatry, which published these findings, commented that these findings ‘have the potential to raise expectations for new anti-depressant treatments’.




    I am interested.
     
  18. psychonaut2000

    psychonaut2000 Newbie

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    This muscarinic action u described doesnt produce euphoria but would block clinical depression. But remember, we are talking about clinical depresion, a disorder. These people's brains are wired differently than yours. What blocks depression in them could cause it in u. I would strongly discourage delerium-producing doses of this drug. It is just too close to the dose that shuts down your heart and lungs. U need those.
     
  19. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    From Wiki:
    While it has been used as the above user stated, this plant does not contain the chemical being discussed and should not be treated as a source of Scopolamine.
     
  20. psychonaut2000

    psychonaut2000 Newbie

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    So then what is the active chemical in the horsenettle fruit which causes sedation? All i can find on google is that the ripe fruit has no solanine. OK fine so what is causing the sedative/anticonvulsive properties if not scopolamine? This plant is a nighthade. Most nightshades have similar alkaloids.