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short term methodone use to beat heroin addiction?

Discussion in 'Opiate addiction' started by oliwog, Nov 25, 2009.

  1. oliwog

    oliwog Newbie

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    hi there, swim has been using heroin for a while on an off but recently has built up a small habit, jus over a gram a week but the withdrawels are every 6 hours, anyway swim only used daily to help beat an allergy but started using more an more but now swim thinks the allergy is gone an also wants to stop using heroin without becoming addicted to methodone as the heroin isnt working for the allergy much due to lack of euphoria.
    swim has an appointment (2nd meeting)today at 4 to see a doc at a clinic to get a methodone script an be put on a programme so needs some advice soon please
    swim would like to basically use meth for a few days to combat the withdrawel an then stop, swim has read lots an lots on meth on other ways so is pretty clued up. an has read the 5 day methodone taper thread which is wot swim wants to try.
    swim smokes weed daily so can use that to take the boredom off an combat the whole swim needs to get high feeling as swim doesnt really like to smoke H anymore anyways.

    swim needs to know how long swim can keep using methodone before addiction sets in,
    swim hopes he can stop using h an use meth for say 5 or 6 days as swim thinks thats all that swim should need to beat it, maybe even less. as its only physical whithdrawel not really in the head.

    oliwog added 484 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...

    ok so swim went to said appt an managed to get a script of methodone for 1 week,
    after a long friendly chat with the doc an swims keyworker it was decided that swim would get 20ml meth today an 30ml tomorow, which was very handy for swim as swim is now feeling ok an no withdrawels, swim thinks that 20ml is about perfect for him. so may just stick to that then lower it in a few days
    the doc at first was insistent swim tries subutex as swim wanted more of a detox method but swim would have to have waited 12 hours to take first dose which just wasnt possible as swim was already feelin the sweats an chills an needed something today.
    the doc wasnt very sure swim would be able to just stop the meth an not carry on with the H so was more trying to get swims dose gradually higher up then lower down etc but swim is very insistent in attempting to get off the H in a 5-10 days without becoming hooked on meth. as swim is quit scared of getting hooked on that. an not very interested in doing H again an gettin another habit after quitting this one thats for sure.

    also the doc was surprised i used the H as an antihistamine an it worked an wants to lok further into it. lol.

    hopefully fingers crossed swim will be able to do it ok, any advice is welcome an much apprectiated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2009
  2. ponehacker

    ponehacker Silver Member

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    Personally, swim has no honest answer for swiyou but he says that all of his good buddies(and g/f) went into it with that idea and, needless to say, are all still on methodone.

    In any event bee really safe hear cuz it can be an evil mofo. Try some tramadol(as much as swim hates that devil word cuz of their own little(huge) addiction they posess), they are fantastic for strafing off a few days of withdrawls without grabbing swiyou like methodone can & will.


    So pill popper swim tells me anywho---but who wants to trust a guy that eats half a bottle of vicodin a day.....lol.....j/k.....
     
  3. oliwog

    oliwog Newbie

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    swim can get tramadol easily from swims partner as she get it prescribed for pain but never uses them. she also uses H but is going to come off on her own an see how she does but swim will try to help her out any way he can. swim tried tramadol once an took 2 x 50mg pills an felt really horrible a hour or so later this was when swim was not smoking H tho an had no habit, jus weed. so swim really does not want to take them much at all. same for the H an sometimes meth it gives swim a sick feeling which helps discourage swim from a wanting to use it this is not the same sick as when swim first started tho an is assuming it may be from cuts in the H maybe.
     
  4. YeaXTC

    YeaXTC Palladium Member

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    Just as a heads up, in swims experience so far, there's no "painless" way to get off of any opiates. Swim just did a 2 week quick taper with suboxone, first day did 3mg, then moved to 1 mg ~4days, .5 mg for ~1 week, and .25 mg for the last 3 days. Swims not even over the "3 day halflife" of suboxone, so he doesn't know how bad WDs are even gonna get, but by doing the quick taper it has been a lot easier, the past 2 weeks have been very stable with no problems, and the past 2 days have only been light cold shakes/slightly uncomfortable crawly skin.... Honestly today's even easier than yesterday, but like swim said we wont really know until tomorrow technically because of the long half life of the drug. If swiy does decide to do a quick taper, just dont stray from it, stick to the plan, cuz its really easy to think "hey if imma taper anyways why not get high all week then taper next week?!" cuz swim did this for about 2~3 weeks until he actually ever did his taper.... its just a waste of time and prolonging the eventual end anyways, and also, while on MMT try as hard as swiy can to not use while on it also, weather long or short taper, cuz even if swiy barely gets high, it hinders our recovery and still helps feed our addictions..

    Gotta go be with family... :\ hope this at least helped swiy somewhat..

    xo

    Jesse
     
  5. beena

    beena Palladium Member

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    First of all SWIM would say forget the tramadol idea: tramadol is an opioid, not an opiate. This basically means it is a man-made, synthetic drug, designed to mimic the pain-killing effects of an opiate. But it has a different chemical make-up from other opiates so it does not work for withdrawal. Basically the only thing that can combat the withdrawal effects from an opiate like heroin is another opiate. So if SWIY can get hold of something like MST (morphine sulphate), Oxycontin, Fentanyl, Dihydrocodeine or even codeine then these will work and take away the physical w/d effects SWIY is experiencing from heroin, because they like heroin are opiates.
    Needless to say they are also addictive. SWIY could try buying something like paramol, which is available over the counter. Paramol contain dihydrocodeine which is an opiate. The tablets themselves though also contain about 500mgs of paracetamol each, so if taken in large quantities they would be extremely dangerous to the internal organs of your body. Most people combat the danger by performing a cold-water-extraction, which is very simple to do (it basically just involves crushing up the tablets, adding cold water and leaving for a while, in the fridge usually, and then pouring through a filter of some kind - SWIM uses a teatowel, which is not ideal btw, but she is still living to tell the tale - and drinking the water which contains the dihydrocodeine. The paracetamol will be left behind on the filter and this can just be chucked away).
    Methadone is a synthetic drug too but it is designed to take away the w/d from opiates. However it is also addictive and some people would say it is harder to get off than heroin itself. On the plus side it is legal, can be prescribed regularly (so SWIY can get it daily and won't have to face those horrible days of having nothing), and can be reduced over time in a planned, safe way.
     
  6. Cooki

    Cooki Gold Member

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    Swim must be missing something..

    Is swiOliwog seeking a way to avoid physical withdrawals by switching to methadone or the like, for a short term?

    The withdrawals will still be there after the end of the detox, because any or all of the above-mentioned drugs are opiates/opiate substitutes.

    Oliwog, swim has to say swiy will experience opiate withdrawal whatever full-agonist he chooses!! Swiy can most definitely control the severity of the withdrawals, but not the occurence of them!

    Maybe it would be a good idea to use some OTC remedies, and supplements to ease symptoms too though; all the information swiy could need is in the 'A how-to guide to opiate detox'
    http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76991
    ...as well as some suggestions for fast/ultra fast taper plans.

    Best of luck:vibes:
     
  7. missparkles

    missparkles Platinum Member & Advisor Donating Member

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    OK I'm slightly confused (nothing new there then;)) but in the UK methadone is usually used to enable a user to gradually replace heroin with methadone, until they're on only methadone. Then they stabilise on a specific dose that keeps them comfortable, before reducing and quitting.

    This stabilising is usually dependent on length of heroin use and issues to be resolved before getting clean. Methadone provided the stability to enable you to gain control of your life so the pressures that were there originally have been resolved. That way you don't go back to the same situation you were in, drug free and vulnerable. To use it as a short term detox method seems a little ill advised.

    Now SWIY may have started using heroin for rec purposes, but the amount he was using would possibly have caused other problems, heroin related problems, so he needs a little time to sort these out too. Plus after getting clean SWIY needs a plan, or strategy to stay clean, he can't work this out in 5-10 days. Maybe another chat with the doc would be helpful.

    But as has been said 10 days of methadone is not gonna prevent WD, it's gonna happen, the best SWIY can do is try to minimise the effects. Discuss getting Clonidine and Loperamide from your doctor, and set up some support with a drug counselor. The problems that arise during WD (however mild) and afterwards cannot be fully anticipated or understood.

    This is the risky time when relapse is at it's most likely. Having someone who knows how you're feeling can make the difference between getting through it and relapse.


    Sparkles.:vibes:
     
  8. beena

    beena Palladium Member

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    ^ Well, that's not strictly true: SWIM has used morphine tablets (30mg MST tablets to be precise) to come off heroin, with no physical withdrawal. It's not rocket-science either - she simply switched from buying and using heroin to taking MST's instead. They're chemically similar to heroin, being an opiate as well, so they had similar effects on the body and mind. Importantly because they're a prescribed drug SWIM could be confident that each tablet was of the same purity and strength - in this case each pill contained 30mg or morphine.
    Obviously at first SWIM needed to experiment with the dosage to find out how much was needed to get rid of the physical w/d she was experiencing from coming off heroin. For SWIM this was about 150mgs (or five tablets). The pills she had were slow (or continuous) release, meaning that not all of the morphine was released in one go, rather over a 12 hour period she would keep feeling the medicinal effects of the drugs. SWIM actually reckons it was more like 8 hours, than 12, but that's neither here nor there in relation to this thread.
    For the first few days then SWIM took 5 tablets when she woke up in the morning and then another 5 in the evening, when she felt the effects wearing off. After about three days SWIM started reducing her intake, so it went something like this:
    Day One ..... morning 5x30mg tabs .... evening 4x30mg tabs
    Day Two ..... morning 4x30mg tabs .... evening 4x30mg tabs
    Day Three ... morning 4x30mg tabs .... evening 3x30mg tabs
    Day Four ..... morning 3x30mg tabs .... evening 3x30mg tabs
    Etc, etc ... SWIM won't write out the entire schedule for reduction, but you should get the gist from this. This was a plan for w/d'ing quite quickly from the drugs, but there's no right or wrong way to go about it. So, it's quite possible for a person to stay on the same dosage for two or three days and then cut the dose a little, again stay on that dose for a couple of days before reducing again. Also, it would be possible to only reduce the dosage by half a pill at a time, if desired. There are many ways to go about it obviously. When SWIM got down to 30mgs twice a day, her next stage was to split the tablets in half, so she was effectively taking 15mgs a day. She did that for a few days and then she cut the evening dose out altogether so she was just taking 15mgs in the morning. When she finally made the jump from 15mgs a day to zero she found that the physical w/d was negligible.
    So, you see, there is no reason why coming off opiates has to be difficult and painful.
     
  9. YeaXTC

    YeaXTC Palladium Member

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    The above method can work, but takes a ton of self control that in all honesty, many addicts dont have. Hell, swim had enough trouble sticking to his suboxone dose, swims not sure he could even limit himself in a real partial agonist, the little thing in his head would always be saying *just one more pill* etc etc...

    Now, this all depends on the person, swims not saying swiy cant do it, just as a forewarning...

    And swim does think maybe the WDs are "painless" compared to other WDs he's experienced, but it's still there, the feeling of WD, that draggy feeling, but swim must say this is almost a walk in the park compared to regular WDs, and getting normal daily activities done is near no problem.

    Good luck either way, and be sure to keep us updated in swiy progress and recovery!!

    xo

    Jesse
     
  10. beena

    beena Palladium Member

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    ^ Oh yeah: SWIY is spot on about the self-control issue: SWIM had to go away, leaving her home in London to stay with her folks many miles away in order to detox - basically she put herself in a forced detox situation by going to a place that she was unfamiliar with (as far as being able to buy drugs that is). There's no way SWIM would've had the willpower to stick to the programme in London where heroin would be readily available.
    As for the w/d's - take enough morphine and SWIY could definately deal with the physical pangs, but mentally it's always tough - SWIM felt lethargic, depressed and a general feeling of hopelessness for much of the time she was detoxing. There's a wonderful point though that comes suddenly one day when you feel the cloud of darkness steadily lifting and moving away from you - then you get a sense of normality again in life accompanied by energy and enthusiasm (well, that's what happened to SWIM anyway) - that makes the detox all worth it in the end.
     
  11. Electrolingus

    Electrolingus Platinum Member & Advisor

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    ISO, methadone is a much better choice than morphine for short term withdrawal management. Methadone has an extremely long half life (24+ hours) and is highly fat soluble, allowing greater ease in passing the Blood Brain Barrier. Heroin is highly fat soluble as well, but it has a significantly shorter half life. Morphine is also relatively short acting and it is the least fat soluble of the three.

    Methadone allows a more steady and even activation of the opiate receptors with a gradual reduction over a relatively long duration. This allows for a gradual reduction of neural activity, as opposed to the repeated passive/aggressive like neural activity that comes with maintaining a heroin habit, and the rapid onset of acute withdrawal from its discontinuation. SWIM has used methadone on numerous occasions to ease the withdrawal from heroin without developing a cross-dependence. A gradual taper over the course of 5-7 days is what worked best for him. The first few times that he used methadone for withdrawal management, it provided an almost symptom free heroin detox. However, after completing an extended period on MMT, this method became much less effective.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
  12. ex-junkie

    ex-junkie Newbie

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    in this thread is some information on how to do short methadone tapers, that actually seem to be more successful than the longer tapers. no addiction is created if done properly.

    perhaps take this information to swiys doctor, and if he has half a brain or a heart, he will let swiy try it this way.

    taken from this thread. -----> http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88863&highlight=methadone

    will require a little bit of basic maths.
     
  13. mickey_bee

    mickey_bee Gold Member

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    If swim understands you correctly, your habit is just over a gram a week?

    As far as habits go, this is an incredibly small one; much lower and swim doesn't think you'd have a habit!

    Which is a great thing! The smaller the habit the better.

    However, unless swiy has failed to get off by themselves in the past, swim would strongly advise against starting on methadone to try and get clean.

    With a habit this small the withdrawals will be very light, (as WD's go), and probably over completely within 5 days maximum.
    Starting on methadone when swiy has such a small habit seems silly to swim, why throw in another, and as swim knows from personal experience, very nasty, opiate.

    Try and do it by swiyself, with a habit of this size it is very doable. You can do it!

    Only after swiy has failed to get clean on his own several times should he look to begin a methadone script. It's not something swiy wants to start.

    Good luck, and take it easy!
     
  14. Electrolingus

    Electrolingus Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Cold turkey withdrawal from a 1 gram per week high grade heroin habit can actually be quite uncomfortable. At the very least, too uncomfortable for some to simply just stop using it. Not to mention some people just handle withdrawal better than others. Plus, if someone has other responsibilities such as a job, it makes the process even more difficult. SWIM doesn't think that anyone is suggesting long term methadone maintenance or prolonged use. A seven day taper plan (like the one posted above by ex-junkie), when done correctly, is less than likely to send one running to long term MMT once that week comes to an end. At least no more than a seven day buprenorphine taper would doom one to BMT. Before Buprenorphine (which ISO works slightly better than methadone for withdrawal management), most methadone programs in SWIMs area of the U.S. offered outpatient 14 day methadone detox regimens for opiate withdrawal management.
     
  15. mickey_bee

    mickey_bee Gold Member

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    Aye, swim appreciates that everyone reacts differently, both to heroin addiction, and pain tolerance.

    Swim would agree that it would be tough if the individual had some commitments like work during the withdrawal.

    However, this is basically a bag-a-day habit, which is all-in-all pretty small. Provided the individual can afford to chill out for a few days, the withdrawal should be relatively easy. Obviously WD's never easy, but some WD's are at least doable without too much discomfort. This WD would be one of them.

    Swim just thinks it would be better to do it nice and quickly, and without putting any other drugs in the system unless absolutely necessary. 4 days after stopping it's likely the individual would be feeling considerably better.

    Of course, swim doesn't know this persons history at all, and so in his individual case, it may well turn out that the path he chose was the most appropriate. Swim was just pointing out a view.

    Either way, swim wishes him the best of luck!
     
  16. oliwog

    oliwog Newbie

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    ok so its been a few weeks an swims mind has gone from one thing to another, firstly swim would like to say thanks very much for the info an advice form everyone.
    swim started methodone but has since decided to stop using it as it makes swim feel much worse an basically doesnt do swims bowels any good, swim has spent weeks with feeling sick from not digesting food quick enough due to the constipation the meth causes. swims body worked well before the meth now it doesnt basically. so swim has stopped the meth for over a week now, still bowels havnt returned to normal yet. swim will give it another week or 2 of using H an jus try to stop an ride out the withdrawels for a few days/week, swim doesnt want to end up with meth withdrawels so wants to ensure its completly out of swims system before even started to detox. swim will report back before swim starts his detox.
    thanks again for the info guys an gals, an sorry for the late reply swims been feeling very unwell lately an now thinkin swim shouldve jus gone thru withdrawel in the first place. as it wouldnt have been much worse an not for as long, dodgy stuff that methodone is, i wont be taking that again thats for sure.(it wasnt withdrawels making me ill cos it was ok an worked well for the first couple weeks)
    swim doesnt think craving will be a major issue the H is pretty poor quality an doest even get swim high anymore, plus the allergy that swim was suffering an initially used H for relief of has been sorted an is now no existent, so swims only want for H is to releive withdrawel even then swim doesnt really even want it.