TEK - Simple Hawaiian Baby Woodrose extraction

Discussion in 'LSA seeds' started by wocket, Jan 14, 2006.

  1. wocket

    wocket Newbie

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    Yes, I'm new here. I've searched every thread I could find, but I have a very specific question about an extraction. I'm usually on another forum for all of my.. entheogenic needs, but they lacked the knowledge to help me out with this one.

    I have a crap ton of real Hawaiian train Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds coming my way. About 250.

    Now, Swim, who they're for, wants to do an extraction.

    The extraction method I has found most appealing is this:

    - Grind up about 150 seeds in a coffee grinder
    - Put in a jar and pour enough naptha to cover the seeds and then some
    - Shake very well and let sit for a few hours
    - Drain through a funnel/coffee filter
    - Spread out the mush on a paper plate and let dry completely, until there is no naptha smell

    -- this is where I am wishing to change it

    - the procedure calls that you put the ground up seeds in a high-proof alcohol (50 mL) for several days, with occasional shaking. Then, filter out the seed gunk and keep the alcohol, and drink it (slowly, holding it in your mouth for a minute or two for a little bit of a tincture effect) Not all the alcohol at once, mind you. There should be about 3 seeds worth of LSA per mL of alcohol, maybe a little less. A few mL of alcohol should be a trip. Hell, I don't know, I suppose you could put 2-3 mL in a rack of test tubes and top off with some grape Juicy Juice, cork and keep in the fridge. Those would make some kick-ass shooters.

    But what I would like to change about it is that once the naptha has evaporated, he would like to just use water as his polar compound. The crushed seeds, after being soaked in naptha, could just be put in a tea bag and put in a bottle of water in the fridge for 24 hours, right? Will this work? I've heard of plenty of cold water extractions, seen a lot of non-polar/polar extractions using solvents and ethanol, but never seen a solvent/water extraction. It seems like it should work, but I just wanted an expert opinion before I go and wastes some really fine Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds on something that neither he or I are sure will work.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Jimmeh

    Jimmeh Silver Member

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    Naptha is the polar solvent and alcohol is non-polar, you can use use water instead of Naptha AFAIK, although it seems that naptha is better(never tried it, can someone explain why?).

    Also, isn't 5-15 seeds supposed to be a normal HBWS dose?
     
  3. wocket

    wocket Newbie

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    No, Naptha IS the non-polar compound and alcohol is the polar one. LSA binds to H2O when you do a cold-water extraction, right? That means it's polar. If naptha were polar and you put your HWBR in it, you'd be more or less fucked, because all the LSA would then be in the Naptha, and good luck consuming that.

    Yes, 5-15 seeds is an average dose. I said I was going to use 150, and then break it up into about 15-20 smaller doses. Each mL of alcohol solution will contain the LSA from three of the world's most potent real Hawaiian Hawaiian Baby Woodrose, and if each shooter tube has approximately 2-3mL of solution in it, in addition to whatever yummy juice swim choses, then that figures to about 6-9 seeds worth of LSA. Those are moderate-to-strong doses, considering the quality of seeds being used.
     
  4. psychedelaholic

    psychedelaholic Titanium Member

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    Whenever SWIM trips on LSA seeds he always complains of a lot of negative affects such as leg cramps and severe numbness. Would making pure LSA stop these negative affects? Also what form is the LSA in after you evap. off the solvent? And is IPA an ok polar solvent to use?
     
  5. wocket

    wocket Newbie

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    That's just what I said. H2O IS POLAR!!! JUST LIKE ETHANOL! You drink the water when you do a cold water extraction! Any idiot can tell you that. Naptha is a NON-polar solvent. It gets rid of one of the two really bad chemicals in Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds by bonding to them and removing them from the seeds. Then, once that's gone, you put the seeds in a polar substance, to which the LSA bonds. At that point, all that's left in the seeds is bad chemical # 2. This is consistent with everything I've ever read and everyone I've ever talked to.

    In an Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seed, there are:

    LSA
    Bad chem #1
    Bad chem #2

    LSA will bond only to polar substances
    bad chem # 1 will bond to a non-polar substance, but small amounts will also come out of the shell if saturated with liquid for a long period of time. This is why you only do cold water extractions for 12-24 hours. Any longer than that, and some of bad chem #1 will be in the water. The trade off, however, is that less of the LSA transfers from the seeds to the water.
    Bad chem #2 does not bond to substances and remains in the seed material

    All non-polar/polar extraction methods follow this basic principle. Don't believe me?

    http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Extraction/extract2.html
    http://www.clearwhitelight.org/hatter/LSAextraction.htm
    First-hand account: http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=6346
    http://www.dataalchemy.com/txt/DRUGS/LSD.TXT.htm

    ---------------------
    And psychedelaholic,

    The problem with all the LSA seeds is that they have nasties in them. Hawaiian Baby Woodrose for one, has compounds that are related to cyanide, and even has small amounts of cyanide. Not lethal, mind you, but nauseating beyond belief. Most of that is in the outer layers of the seed. If you scrape them with a pocket knife very meticulously, until you almost get to the "meaty" kernel, the nausea will be reduced. Within the kernel I believe there is another chem that also is toxic and causes nausea and other physical discomfort. Oh, and DEFINITELY remove the white fuzzy stuff that grows on most strains of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose. That will for sure make you vomit.

    When it comes to morning glories, they'll usually make you just as sick, and they're too small to be scraped, not that I have any evidence that removing the outer layer of MG seeds would help, if it were even possible. But the good new is, cold-water extraction works reasonably well for MG seeds as far as getting the dosage right. You just put however many seeds you usually take, plus about an additional 20% because you will lose some matter in the process, and grind them really well, like in a coffee grinder. Then just put the powder in a tea bag, put it in a bottle of watter, and set it in the fridge for 12-24 hours. Remove the teabag, and viola! It's ready to drink. Not as much of the LSA will be extracted as if you did a complete non-polar/polar extraction. The other reason people do a complete n-p/p extraction is to be left with a high-concentration solution of LSA. If they have this in alcohol, they can evaporate it off and be left with a yellow-to-brown gunk. That's the goodies. Then they just put it in gel caps. Hawaiian Baby Woodrose contains a lot more LSA per seed than MG. They're much larger. So that's why it's usually smarter to do a n-p/p extraction, rather than just a simple cold-water (polar only) extraction. That way you can let the seeds soak in the polar substance for much longer, like 3-5 days, and not worry about anything harmful dissapating into the solution. (I recommend alcohol for long-term soaking because mold and crap can grow in water during the evaporation process and the LSA goop will have a lot of bacteria and mold spores on it so you may still get just as sick or sicker, though I suppose water could work if you don't plan on evaporating off the liquid and you're just going to drink it)

    So, the forms of LSA:

    -Straight seeds

    - scraped seeds (almost as hard work as extraction with poorer results, but you're not left waiting a day or more)

    - Simple LSA water! (with a cold-water extraction, only down point is you could potentially have a weak trip if most of the LSA didn't transfer into the water, but you can do this in as little as 12 hours)

    - LSA vodka! (extra steps and takes 3-6 days, but very good, dependable, and mesurable doses - you can do 100 Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds in 50 mL of alcohol, and if you wanted a 10 seed trip, you'd just get a syringe, suck up 5 mL of the solution, and put it in your drink! Keep the rest in your fridge... 9 more 10-seed doses ready to go!)

    - LSA goop (rather than drink the alcohol, put it in a shallow pan and let it evaporate off until only a yellow gunk is left... then scrape it together *make sure you have an idea how many seeds' worth of LSA there is per gram!*, and pack it in capsules, or spread it on your toast... whatever. If you wanted to dry it out further, I supposed that's possible if you have some dehumidification equipment, but DO NOT APPLY HEAT! Heat is BAD for almost all tryptamines, and will destroy LSA!)

    If you had the facilities and the knowledge, I suppose you could even take that LSA goop, extract it further for absolute PURE LSA, then use it to manufacture real LSD, but that's quite an operation and not really worth it IMO, just for personal use. Besides, that's rather high-profile, because of some of the things you have to get. And you know if you ever learned to make LSD, it'd never stay "for personal use". There's such a high demand for it and it's so hard to come by... you'd start making a LOT of it, and selling it to pay the rent.. or to buy new clothes.. or a car... a mansion in Costa Rica... whatever, and probably go to prison for a very, very long time.

    Not that LSA extraction isn't risky. It's manufacturing a schedule III substance. Which is more illegal than just consuming the seeds (yes, you can get busted for it, though it's unlikely) or buying/possessing extracted LSA from someone. It's not as illegal as buying/possessing LSD or any other schedule I substance, though. The only reason it isn't too terribly risky is that it's nothing you can't accomplish in the privacy of your own home with a little 180-proof vodka and a trip to your local Wal-Mart. Only use it yourself or maybe a few very close trusted friends, and nobody will know or even care. Distribute it at a party, however... that's another story.

    Oh, and LSA itself can cause some discomfort, like leg cramps, and it can cause pregnant women to go into labor, but for the average person, it's nothing all that unpleasant.
     
  6. Jimmeh

    Jimmeh Silver Member

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    My apologies... I've heard of water being used instead of naptha several times though(which is why my presumption was wrong). Also, isn't ethanol both non polar and polar?(can someone explain?)

    This is from the main FAQ on Erowid:
    http://www.erowid.org/plants/morning_glory/morning_glory_faq.shtml#chem

    You dispose of the water in that case.....
     
  7. ][v][arty

    ][v][arty Newbie

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    Better late than never,

    Jimmeh: The water extraction you have quoted does not imply that the water is disposed of.

    By doing a water extraction, the water will extract the desired chemicals; LSA + other polar soluble, then you would filter this and keep the water. You could then drink this water as it contains the LSA, or let it evaporate and consume the gunk left behind of which the majority is LSA. LSA does not Evaporate.

    The water is not disposed of, if you just went and put the seed mush into the water, let the water extract the LSA and then proceeded to dispose of the water by chuckin it down the drain, then you would enevitably be throwing away the LSA that the water contains.
     
  8. Jimmeh

    Jimmeh Silver Member

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    It was a long time ago, but I thhink I meant that since you let the water evaporate off it is "disposed of". I've a better grasp of this now and understand better, will try this over the summer.
     
  9. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

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    So, as I understand it the simplest way to extract LSA from Hawaiian Baby Woodrose is to either let the grinded seeds sift in water for 12 hours or in 55% liquor for an 3-6 days. The filtered liquid can then be consumed. Right?
     
  10. jbmac

    jbmac Newbie

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    I tried one fresh Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seed, scraped off all the outside layer, and
    just popped it into his mouth, slowly chewed and swallowed. very mild
    closed eye visuals, mild "acid-like" emotions and warm feelings, only
    the slightest hint of mild nasea. I am waiting a week and then
    will try 4 of these seeds this way. SWIM hears that Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds
    do not need the several day grinding/alcohol/water extractions that
    morning glory seeds require. PS, I got very intense CEVs
    using one whippit of n20 - wow N2O plus any hallucinagen = wow.
     
  11. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

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    I have tried H.B. Woodrose seeds this way as well (just scraping off the edge, crushing it, and throwing it in his mouth), though up to 14 seeds.

    He finds now that extracting it is much more worthwhile as you are wasting some of the LSA in the seeds if you just ingest normally as it doesn't seem to absorb as well.
     
  12. jbmac

    jbmac Newbie

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    Since I feel just one seed - is the "trip" better after doing an extraction of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds? By scraping, I think most of the nausea goes away - so I am not worried about wasting it, but your buddy still think the trip is better extracting then just chewing the seeds?
     
  13. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

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    I feel that the LSA seems to kick in more smoothly, its nausea-free (scraping sometimes leaves a bit of nausea), and he feels the effects quite clearly.

    With scraping he has had good experiences though sometimes nausea can come up, and sometimes the trip takes a while to kick in fully (it slowly builds up).

    In swim's opinion a simple extraction would be good if You is aiming for higher doses.
     
  14. chilliker

    chilliker Silver Member

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    The most annoying thing in my opinion is the constant shaking. What I do is that he just puts the container with the seeds and the alcohol in the floor of his car. This works really nice cuz its always being shaked.

    What about if SWIM puts it in a non-polar solvent for it to lose bad chem #1 and then just eats them instead of extracting? Will this cause nausea?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2007
  15. Powdered Sugar

    Powdered Sugar Newbie

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    Swim Used the non polor extraction before and when it came to the alcohol he just let it sit for 2 days only shaking like twice a day and came out with some potent stuff. and all he did is mix half a shot with punch. oh but I made sure to keep the bottle in a paper bag in the fridge to keep it cool and away from light.
     
  16. dip

    dip Newbie

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    [paranoid]
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  17. wellhelm

    wellhelm Silver Member

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    If I could only get Hawaiian Baby Woodrose with the pesticides on it would this extraction rid the final product of the pesticides or would the pesticides most likely be soluble in alcohol/solvent?
     
  18. dip

    dip Newbie

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    the pesticides are harmless as far as I know. The cyanide glucosides (and other chemicals?) will make You sick, which the extraction will remove; from Hawaiian Baby Woodrose or MG.
     
  19. tone3721

    tone3721 Newbie

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    If your plan was to go from LAA-111-->LSD, wouldnt D H2O be the way to go? Because any alcohol containing the OH bond, would epimerize the 8 position yielding it isomer? Involving another step to convert to LAA-111, from ISO-LAA. Wouldnt it be easier to extract with water, hydrolize with say: sodium bicarbonate, and sulfuric(tartaric? textbook calls for H2SO4, and NaHCO3 for these types of reactions)? Im presuming extraction would epimerize, but hydrolysis wouldnt. Yielding LA(possible column here), which could be coupled a' la casey, then purified through column.
     
  20. tone3721

    tone3721 Newbie

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    Care to elaborate aminorex? Out of 220 posts, maybe 7 or 8 of them actually contain words. As opposed to aaaaaaaa, or .........., or how bout sssssssssssss, had few ////////// in there too. Not very condusive too anything really. Even less are complete sentences if Swit recalls. ODD