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Starting a Suboxone/Bupe detox with 2 weapons: Kratom and Loperamide

Discussion in 'Opiate & Opioid addiction' started by SunZup, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. SunZup

    SunZup Newbie

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    Hey everybody.
    New to this forum as a poster, but I’ve been reading here a lot and these forums have helped me a great deal.

    I have a looooong history with opiates, I’m 36 years old now, was on methadone for 5 years, clean n sober for 5 years, back on methadone and sub for another few years, back and forth, back and forth. I have come off opiates many times and I have always just basically toughed it out. I would just taper slowly and then stop, and maybe take some trazadone at night to help my sleep. It always sucked tremendously and I just had to deal with it, not knowing that there was anything out there to help me.

    Currently I have been on suboxone strips or sometimes subutex for the past 4 months. I was clean for a year and a half but I made the mistake of going to Europe this summer where I went to a music festival SONAR and took molly and drank beer, and this lead to an eventual relapse on opiates!

    But now, 4 months later I know that enough is enough! I’m tired of being underweight, depressed, lethargic and isolating myself, plus wasting my money. I’ve gotten down to taking about 2-3 mg.s of suboxone a day (from 8mg.s a day a month ago) and just when I thought I’d have to somehow endure another taper and then just stop and be miserable for weeks I discovered the whole Kratom/Loperamide solution. And to be honest, stopping on my own doesn’t always work. I’ve been trying to get off these subs for the past 2 months already with no luck at finishing the detox.

    So… I ordered 125 grams (a sample pack of five 25 gram packets of different types of kratom) from an online supplier, and it will be here monday (eagerly tracking the package online!). It is now Sunday evening.

    I also went to walmart yesterday and bought a big bottle of loperamide and a big bottle of ibuprofen. I will take my last dose of sub of 1.5mgs on monday morning and that will be it.

    Then... the grand experiment begins! Will this long time opiate addict be able to kick with the help of these aids? Normally I would go nuts and crawl the walls and slip.
    9 times out of 10 I need to be in a detox/rehab to get through the detox without messing up. But I’m very hopeful after what I’ve read from other people on here. I’m not expecting a miracle cure: yes, there will be discomfort, but I really hope it helps a great deal. I also have 1 bar of xanax for emergencies, I could take a quarter of it when needed to take the edge off..

    Any suggestions on this detox I’m about to embark on? I will post follow ups to let you know my progress. I also plan on eating right and doing some mild exercise in the form of bike riding to help the whole recovery process. I am excited to get started! I want my life back. As I said above, I have been clean before for long stretches, and it’s a good life!
     
  2. sealilly77

    sealilly77 Silver Member

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    Well how are you? I too took my last bupe yesterday. My doc gave me Elavil for sleep and baclofen for rls. Let me know and keep in touch the next few days.
     
  3. Rosie P

    Rosie P Titanium Member

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    Well done on taking steps to get your life back! It sounds like you have a realistic view of what to expect, and I wish you all the best with your experiment. I've never used kratom, but loperamide has been a godsend for me in the past.

    Let us know how you're doing - we all want to see you succeed!
     
  4. SunZup

    SunZup Newbie

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    Hey all,
    Day 2 now and things are going pretty good so far.

    I was going to start on Monday but the damn package didn't arrive til Wednesday afternoon, 2 days late. I was tracking it online and watched my precious kratom go from Texas to Illinois to another place in Illinois, then back to the first place, then sit there for a day and a half, and then finally come down to Florida where I live and make its way to my door. At this point I had been doing about 4 mg.s a day of sub. I had wanted to get it down much lower before stopping, and I initially did (I got down to about 1.5 a day) but then I started doing more in the last week, to get a buzz from it. My willpower is shit sometimes so I was back up to 4 mg.s a day (2 in the a.m. and 2 in the p.m.).

    So the last time I did sub was about 1.5 mg.s on Wednesday night at about 10pm. The next day I waited til about noon and did my first bit of Classic Bali. I mixed in one level teaspoon (I think this is about 5 Grams) with a little bit of yogurt and ate it, washing it down with a little water. taste is pretty nasty but who cares.. I did this on an empty stomach. Well, An hour later I didn't feel much. Maybe a tiny bit of slight warmth and mild, mild euphoria. I dosed later that evening, again on an empty stomach, this time mixing it in with a little warm water with honey and just throwing it back.

    Now, normally by this time I'd be feeling a little sick. The subs hold me about 20 hrs, and I usually would have mild withdrawal by this point but I had almost none at all. Feeling about 90% normal. Maybe a little bit of anxiety but I heard the kratom can do that. And again, it was very mild. I felt ok. And I passed out around 10pm. Slept like a baby til 4am. Normally, without the kratom I would've had a shitty night of broken sleep.

    I woke at 4am feeling minor withdrawals, took another teaspoon mixed with water and fell back asleep at 5am.

    Took my first dose on Friday, day 2 (today), at 10am. Empty stomach again (I heard that this is important) I used the Baik Bali strain this time. Now it is 11:45 and although I don't really feel much of anything, I DON'T FEEL SICK!!!! And that's the main point, right? So, so far it is working. I mean, I do have some minor symptoms, like hot and cold flashes and the sweats, but they are totally manageable And the point is to get clean, not get addicted to Kratom or get high from it. Although, I gotta admit I was hoping to get a nice buzz from it, but maybe it's better that I haven't. Less urge to keep re-dosing.

    What I'm kinda worried about is that i am just substituting one drug for another. Because if I had stopped the subs and didn't take another opiod like substance then every day clean would be a day that I was healing and getting closer to feeling normal again. But I am worried that by using this kratom I am prolonging that and not "healing", just putting off the inevitable and using something else instead. I was hoping kratom would cover up my withdrawals while at the same time allowing my body to heal, but maybe that's just not possible... Well, we'll see what happens. I just want to be clean again, with as little pain as possible to get there.

    I have a bunch of different strains that came with my sample pack and I'm not sure which ones to take, but I guess I'll end up taking them all eventually. I don't know which is best for opiate withdrawal.

    I have:
    50g Classic Bali
    25g Kaya Kali White Thai
    25g Red Vein Thai
    25g Baik Bali
    10g Ratu Raja Indo
    10g Tawa Tua Indo

    Any advice on which ones to take?

    I'll update tomorrow.
     
  5. ExJunkie

    ExJunkie Newbie

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    Good job bro. I am in the UK and have not got a clue what this 'Bali' stuff is. I am currently reduced to 1.6mg of subs myself and I am struggling to reduce further. And inevitably keep ending up taking prescription pain killers. Kinda doing my head in. I know when I came off last time I was in a cell so had no choice and it took almost 2 weeks before I felt any kind of normality again. SO keep us updated on how this goes and if it works I will do the same. I also have some diazepam but yet another addiction I could end up with. But like you say anything to take the edge off
     
  6. SunZup

    SunZup Newbie

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    Hey Exjunkie, congrats on getting so low on the subs!
    Even that is a feat. Unfortunately though even a low dose of subs is still pretty strong so you're definitely at a dose where if you stop you'll feel discomfort, although... if you had to stop right now it would be a LOT better than if you were taking like 8 or 16 mg.s a day.

    The 3 times I detoxed off subs before was also in institutions. Not jail, but I couldn't leave or else I'd have been homeless and family not talking to me, so I had to go through it. and yeah, it took about 2 weeks to feel like I could get through the day without being miserable. And then, by about a month later after that I felt tip top and better than ever. The trap of the suboxone monster is a tricky bastard, so hard to shake. PLEASE keep it up!. I mean, you could stop now but that would take a lot of willpower to endure those 2 weeks of misery in the real world.

    I'm feeling halfway decent now as I write this but as I said before, I'm worried my brain is not healing, and that I've just jumped over to the kratom for relief but I'm still hooked. I'm still a little constipated and my pupils are a tad pinned (just a little) so that makes me think I'm still on an opiod like substance that is keeping me addicted.

    But on the other hand I can see this stuff as a good tool to wean with. Since I'm still feeling a little WD's that means I am slowly healing a little. So if I keep tapering with this stuff I'll be able to make it.

    The problem is that all kratom is different, and different vendors have different strengths and strains, so it's hard to repeat what one person did and have it work the same for you. Bali is supposed to be the most mild and euphoric (as opposed to stimulating) so therefore best w opiate wd's. So just make sure you find a good, reputable vendor online and then I guess just go with their most popular bali.

    I'll keep you updated. Good luck with your taper and don't give up or fall back like I did! Life is short and worth living. I wasted 5 yrs + on methadone and another couple on subs and I wish I could take it back. Don't let that happen to you!

    Cheers
     
  7. SunZup

    SunZup Newbie

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    Scary development...
    It has been 2 weeks since I posted, and in that time I overdosed on a combo of xanax and heroin. It was my first time truly OD'ing and it scared the >>>> out of me. I wound up in the hospital for 2 days and got out 6 days ago.

    It all started with the xanax. Silly me, don't I know by now?????? Every time I mess with xanax I eventually get in trouble (or right away in this case). I got some to help the withdrawals and ended up high from them, and then decided to get some heroin. This was now possible since for the previous 4 months or so I'd been on buprenorphine/subs so I hadn't had the option of just using dope, since the bupe blocks it.

    But now I was free and clear to relapse. And I guess my tolerance was that low that the xanax plus the strong heroin I got down here in Florida just put me over the top. I was rushed to the hospital, given Narcan in the ambulance, and apparently got very violent with the EMT's and had to be put in restraints. I don't remember any of this but I got the report from the hospital's medical records office and it is all there in scary black and white.

    I've been an on/off opiate user for 18 years (I'm 36) and this is my first hospitalization for an OD. And after has been so hard. Problems I've suffered are:

    -memory loss

    and also...

    -memory loss
    (Yes, I had to write it twice because it's that bad. Riding around the small city I live in for the first 2 days after the OD seemed weird and different, foreign, and I was very lost and had trouble recognizing the street's names and their relation to each other. Also had trouble recalling friend's names, like if I wanted to call a friend I'd get out my phone and then not be able to remember his name. I feel kinda fried. It's coming back now but god, this is scary).

    -numbness on my thumb and wrist. Don't know why this is but they've been mildly numb ever since I got out of the hospital, still numb now, slightly. Maybe I was laying on my thumb for many hours... who knows.

    -many bruises, scrapes and cuts all over me and I don't know how they got there. Probably from the stuff in the ambulance w/ the EMT's. Their names are in the report and I really feel I owe them a phone call and an apology. That is not me, I'm not normally a violent guy.

    So after the OD I got out of the hospital and was in bad opiate withdrawal so (some will find this hard to believe, whereas other who've been there with opiate addiction will surely understand) I went and got some more heroin, although now doing a lot less at a time, ya know, being cautious.

    I did that for a few days. I had to move because my lease expired and wasn't renewed so I just did that and I'm in my new apartment now which is nice.. The old place had some bad vibes goin on there, I'm happy to start over. As of tonight I started back on the subutex again and will remain on it on a low maintenance dose until I can get into treatment. I'm saying F**k it, no more trying to do this myself, I'm just gonna do what's worked in the past and endure the misery in a safe place where I won't stumble. I want to be 100% clean again. This life sucks and is half-assed, in my opinion, I don't want to be on subs forever. Time to get clean, damn. Truly clean.

    Hopefully better news in my next post. But as far as the kratom detox goes, um, yeah, that's done
     
  8. HTown Junkie

    HTown Junkie Newbie

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    I'm gonna keep this short as I can. I've been a junkie for many years (opiates in general for 17 and daily IV Banger for 15 now - with a few very brief periods of sobriety during rehab stints. 16 and counting) In recent years my habit has gotten absolutely ridiculous - a little over an ounce a week. I'm an oil and gas pipeliner so affording (Price removed) a week habit is taxing but do-able. (I buy an ounce of tar every Friday - (Price removed) in Houston - and come the following Wednesday night I pick up another 8-ball - (Price removed) - to get me thru Thursday and out of bed Friday so I can get to work and do it all over again). Just in case your wondering about the quality of the Heroin I use: I've been shooting heroin in this town a long time and I have my pick of suppliers that sell quantity and the tar I'm using now is better than any of the HCL powder I used to get in Boston or New York when I lived on the East Coast. I also lived in So-Cal for about 4 yrs and while the Tar is slightly less expensive there, it is Not as good. Don't get me wrong there is shit heroin in Houston - especially if you buy it in any of the Wards or other predominantly "black" areas of town but I purchase mine from Mexicans (more specifically Paisa's) that work directly with the cartels.

    Having said that, I am NOW making a huge effort in my life to really clean once and for all. (I drink like a fish too). Mainly due to three reasons:
    1. Financial drain - it sucks up about 2/3rds of my take home pay. I bring home about (Price removed) on average per week and I still struggle to pay bills. Car note, ins, rent, cell, groceries etc.
    2. Trouble hitting - as you can imagine my veins are virtually shot. And I use a brand new rig for EVERY injection. Fresh needles are easy to buy in my area. ($12.84 box of 100 at Walmart) that's the only reason my veins have lasted this long. BTW I recently turned 34, but it can take me 1/2 hour or more on occasion to hit. Sometimes it's 90 seconds just depends. Arms, shoulders, thighs, calves, feet, neck, head, groin (femoral veins) etc. etc. you know the drill.
    3. Perhaps most importantly, I want to re-integrate into society. I work and I shoot dope. That's it! I get out just enough to handle most obligations and to get laid from time to time. But for the most part I'm a fucking cave dweller.

    Fuck, I'm such a piece of shit, I told you I was gonna keep this short now I don't even remember what this thread was about. Maybe this should be posted elsewhere.

    No, I got it! LOPERAMIDE - that's why I'm here.
    As I've said - I think - Trying to make big life changes. I got myself down to about an 8-ball every two days. (Progress not perfection, right). Then from there I tried to reduce further with no success.
    So I decided to just bite the fuckin bullet and go cold, sort of, from there.
    So I hit my wake up on Tue. (About 75 cents. - that's .75 on a scale if u didn't know). I hit my last 40 cents when I got home from work. I fought an incredible fight against picking up and committed to myself that I would try the loperamide, quinine route. (Note: I do NOT use opiates weaker than Dilauded, hydrocodone and morphine sulfate will NOT even get me WELL, much less high). I don't play games when it comes to getting high. Do it right or don't fucking bother. I have no delusions about a loperamide induced euphoria. I'm trying to stay well. If it can't produce that wonderful warm rush I get from mainlining close to a gram a dope or about 30 - 40 mg's of dilauded I don't want it.
    Please excuse any grammatical and/or punctuation errors. And the general disordered, scatter-brain nature of this posting. Im really trying to stay on track.

    LOPERAMIDE/QUININE DOES HELP TO EASE WITHDRAWAL. There, finally got that out. IN MASSIVE QUANTITIES THOUGH. In the last 36 hours I have taken A TOTAL OF 576mg of loperamide. And 20 of the Hylands Leg Cramps with Quinine (cinchona) x3 HUPS or whatever pills. AND, I am amazingly, incredibly, stunningly, astonishingly, shockingly, unbelievably NOT DOPE SICK!!!

    And yeah, maybe I won't shit for 5 days. But guess what genius: I only shit once or twice a week anyways. So big fucking deal. I'm a real junkie - I'm used to it. I haven't had normal BM's in a fucking decade!
    I typically drink 2 full glasses of Metamucil on Wed. and Sat. To produce a BM. Wow, now you know my poo schedule too.
    God, I feel great!! Not from the lop/qui but just from writing some of this down. Like we're on personal level now. So we can feel each other belly to belly - without hope (as Mr. Miller so eloquently stated).

    Because you know what's fucked up: I've recently reached out to old friends in the recovery community - these fucking arrogant, self-righteous mother fuckers that think have it all figured out and if u can't follow their instructions in an exacting and unwavering manner they will turn their fucking backs on you. Well gues what asshole: if I could just "stay clean" "do the deal" "make my meetings" "no half measures" insert whatever fucking lame recovery cliché you wish. Well fuck man?! If it was that easy there wouldn't be that many eternally struggling fucking junkies out there now would there.

    I could go on forever about the insufficiencies and hypocrisies of AA/NA but ill stop here.

    I post this to advise whoever cares that Loperamide will help with WD's. But, perhaps even more so, to get some advice/strength what have you. Because the truth is, I just picked up another ball. And I can't figure out why, I was doing so well. This post has been created over a 4 hour period. We finished the hydro testing of a section of pipeline late last night so I have the day off and I COULDN'T RESIST!?! Please Help?!

    Anyway, FUCK?! I LIVE FOR THAT RUSH!!! I LIVE FOR IT!!'

    Junkie For Life! - We're ALL FUCKED!! Eternally FUCKED!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2013