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Stimulants for opiate withdrawal

Discussion in 'Opiate addiction' started by pema, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. pema

    pema Silver Member

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    During opiate withdrawal I loose all my energy. I have no power and it is hard to stand up and go for a walk or do something else.
    Drinking a cup of coffee did not help me last time. But at that time was used to lots of coffee. Because I drank so much coffee at this time, one cup of coffee did not help me with tiredness anymore. So it was not surprising that I one or two cups of coffee gave me not more energy during withdrawal.
    Now it's a long time ago since I last drank coffee. I nearly drank no coffee for more than two years. When I now would drink a cup, I probably will feel more awake.
    I thought that I maybe could help with tiredness/fatigue when I will start drinking coffee during withdrawal again.
    But I read that stimulants would make everthing worse during withdrawal.
    So I started my reasearch.


    In the follwing clinical study some addicts took some non-opioid drugs and should rate how it helped during opiate withdrawal or if it made symptoms worse. Most of that stuff did not help. Cocaine didn't help, amphetamines not and caffeine either not. No reduction of opioid withdrawal.
    A worsening of opioid withdrawal was reported by 62% of the patients for cocaine, 62% for amphetamine, 50% for caffeine.

    Derik Hermann, Eckard Klages, Helga Welzel, Karl Mann, Bernhard Croissant. Low efficacy of non-opioid drugs in opioid withdrawal symptoms. Addiction Biology Volume 10, Issue 2, pages 165–169, June 2005

    But then - otherwise - I read in some internet forums that use of amphetamine, methamphetamine, ritalin, adderall, ... helped some people during withdrawal. I also read that it helped some people to get through the PAWS but that's another story...

    There are Traditional Chinese Medicine capsules for opiate detox. It's a herbal formula and it seems really to have positive effect on withdrawal. That stuff helped some people to kick opiates. I never took those capsules but I followed some internet forum discussions.
    One of the herbal ingredients is Ephedra sinica. There are only 5% of this herb in the capsules. So it is not much. The capsules seem to help but maybe it's the other ingredients and it is just too less ephedra to to anything...


    I don't want to imagine the comedown from a cocaine injection or XTC pills or methamphetamine while being on opiate withdrawal. This surely won't be funny.
    But maybe some cups of coffee or a cup of ephedra tea (or some ephedra pills) or some guarana capsules could give a little more energy. There will probably be no problems with coming down.

    But the other thing is, that most stimulants increase neurotransmitter levels in the brain (serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine). As I have read, dopamine agonists (e.g. L-Dopa plus decarboxylase inhibitor or apomorphine) shall help with opiate withdrawal.
    Serotonin supplements also are said to help.

    I wasn't able to find clinical/medical/scientific studies whether ephedrine helps or worsens opiate withdrawal symptoms.
    Same case with (meth)amphetamines, MDMA or something similar. Because of the legal status of those chemicals/drugs it is not surprisingly that I cannot find any studies about that.
    But what about ephedra (which is in most countries just a usual prescription drug) or caffeine?
    Everything I found was a little ... strange ...
    Some people told it would help, while other texts say: don't use during withdrawal.

    Any experiences? Or better any medical knowledge? Links to clinical studies?
     
  2. trdofbeingtrd

    trdofbeingtrd Palladium Member

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    No medical knowledge really, but once when I was going through hydrocodone withdrawals I tried some different stims (energy boosters of different sorts) including coffee, energy drinks (rockstar, redbull, monster,), ephedrine, modanafil, and psuedoephedrine. Every single one gave disastrous results. I thought that I didn't have energy (although I had a LOT of "inside" energy hence the restless leg syndrome) so I tried them and I found out later that it's the calming/relaxing things that are supposed to help more. So far however, other than kratom and other opiates, I don't know if that is true.
     
  3. stayupandplay

    stayupandplay Silver Member

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    In de-tox units opiate dependent patients are routinely give benzodiazapines. They certainly help. Lorazapam(ativan) seems to be the most popular. It will certainly help with sleep. Kaopectate for your tummy will help.
     
  4. Bunnintreez

    Bunnintreez

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    in my experience, stimulants just make withdrawal (WD) a lot worse. I can see how some people could think it would help, or maybe it doesnt help for some people, but for me, it definatly does not. When i have done stimulants during opiate withdrawal such as cocaine, mdma, ritalin; my anxiety has gotten a lot worse. Also, when i am in WD i ussualy have really bad restless leg syndrome, and stimulants make this worse. Another thing is that im never able to sleep....and a somethin that just makes it worse for me is that when i used to do any stimulant, i would need to have an opiate for the comedown, so just being on stimulants would be a trigger for me. So basicaly for me, stimulants do not help opiate WD at all, but im really curious to see if it helps anyone else. Im sure if it was mild WD it could help, such as someone with a percocet/hydrocodone/kratom habit.
     
  5. Doctor Who

    Doctor Who Silver Member

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    Stimulants may relieve your depression after withdrawal is over, But they are Disastrous during acute withdrawal,
    contraindictad in any stage because it prolongs the state of nervousness for which Narcotics are the psychological answer!
    The above goes Double for Cocaine!!!
    PEACE!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  6. sammydabull100

    sammydabull100 Newbie

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    i took methamphetamine orally on opiates withdrawals and from what i remember it help me i no longer feel tired and no longer had the diarea but i didnt take big dose because of the comedown.
     
  7. Bunnintreez

    Bunnintreez

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    But when your in opiate withdrawal...ya your tired and out of energy, but you still cant sleep. When im in WD, pretty much all i wanna do is lay there and sleep..thats why i like to smoke weed or do ketamine/benzo's when in opiate withdrawal, if swim did cocaine or some other stimulant he would be in hell
     
  8. brettjv

    brettjv Titanium Member

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    This is a terrible idea.

    When you withdraw from opioids, you are in a state where your adrenaline (a natural stimulant) is through the roof, because your brain has been over-producing it the entire time you've been hooked in order to keep you awake despite the massive doses of CNS depressants (i.e. opioid) you're been pouring into it. This excess is responsible for probably half of the discomforting effects of opioid w/d's.

    Adding another stimulant to the mix is just going to drive you out of your friggin skull. It makes far more sense, if you're going to take something, to take some kind of a relaxation chemical like a benzo or barbiturate. Not that I recommend doing that especially either, but it would provide FAR more 'comfort' than a stimulant would.

    Bottom-line, taking stimulants in withdrawals is highly contra-indicated, in my humble opinion. You will almost certainly find ... they SUCK. Even if you're a caffeine addict, you'd do well to use a minimum of it, just enough to keep the headache away. Any more than that will mess with you.

    I can't even imagine how much doing coke or speed in w/d's would suck ... as soon as I started coming down, I'd be on the phone to The Man SO fucking fast ...

    The best thing you can do for yourself when kicking dope is to GIVE UP on being 'productive' ... you need to treat yourself as though you've got the friggin' plague. Clear your schedule, and plan to accomplish NOTHING aside from getting through to the other side. A bit of exercise is good (like a long walk) and draggin your ass to some recovery meetings is REAL good ... but aside from that? You need to chill the fuck out.

    Worrying about your lack of energy and ability to accomplish shit is going to lead you nowhere but to the phone, to 'call your guy'.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  9. pema

    pema Silver Member

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    Benzodiazepines didn't work for me during withdrawal. Just really really did they help.
    I tried it because I wasn't completely unable to sleep during withdrawal. After I was awake for 3 days and three nights, I took diazepame, flunitrazepame and temazepame.
    I still couldn't sleep. So I took more. In the end I was completely fucked up from those benzos. I wasn't able to walk. I missed the door and hit the wall two meters away from the door. I crawled on the floor. I wasn't able to talk to my girlfriend.
    But I still couldn't sleep. It neither helped to calm down a little. It did not help with my withdrawal RLS.
    I know that they use it "In de-tox units". But it doesn't help much.

    Study to that: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16191669


    But benzodiazepines are no stimulants and that was the question.
     
  10. brettjv

    brettjv Titanium Member

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    Ambien (not technically a benzo but it's a benzo-like drug) does put me down when I'm in w/d's. Maybe only for 3-4 hours, but it does work for me.
     
  11. AboveTheInfluence

    AboveTheInfluence Newbie

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    The most common advice is to stay away from stimulants such as coffee and energy drinks - basically anything with too much sugar. When you are going through acute withdrawals your blood pressure is elevated so by taking something to elevate it more is only going to make matters worse.

    Once you begin to enter the Post Acute Withdrawal stage then you could experiment with stimulants. Beware that the crash from these stimulants could mimic those of withdrawal symptoms and they will cause your moods to swing as well.

    My twin had a mild to mediocre problem with oxycodone. He takes a multi-vitamin along with extra doses of B6 & B12 with his coffee every morning to help combat fatigue. He also happens to LOVE orange juice in the mornings since that also has B & C vitamins but too much can bother the stomach from the acid. After an hour he begins to feel very awake and his mood is happy. Mid day he will have 1-2 energy drinks depending on his bed time for that night. If you work it out perfectly you can crash at night right before bed and it should help you fall asleep.

    I've heard that 300 mg of caffeine a day is the most you should have. Any more and you can risk having "caffeine hangovers" and you can hurt the quality of your sleep even more. Depending on your body, caffeine can stay in your system as long as 12 hours so you might not feel like its still working but it really is.

    Drink stimulants in moderation - if you are on a caffeine high all day and night you will not get a quality sleep as opposed to if you just drank water or juice. It could turn into a vicious cycle that only creates another problem to an existing one - creating a stress that could lead to triggers and possibly relapse.
     
  12. Eeeee Dub!!!

    Eeeee Dub!!!

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    My cat had a few false starts and stops during his final battle with opiate addiction. He tried several methods. Tapering didn't work as he always taperd his way right back up. The "trainspotting" method (CT locked in your apartment) met with the same results it did in the movie. Finally settled on small amounts of cocain during the day and a xanex with some grass at night. Wsorked for my cat and he is now opiate free for 2 yrs after 3 as an addict.

    My cat was very surprised to read this thread and learn all research and logic says he did it wrong! He thought it was a great idea at the time and felt quite smug when his home made treatment plan worked better than his dr's suboxone plan.

    Wow learn something new everyday I guess!
     
  13. Lodewijkp

    Lodewijkp Silver Member

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    Theobromin is actually a good one... you can get it by eating the whole cocao pod , chocolate, cocao powder or you can use theobromin isolate...

    i have no freaking idea why Isolate theobomin isn't used for opiate addictions, it's easier to get of theobromin than opiates.

    do some research in this chemical



    here's why coffee doesn't work .. check youtube for ori hofmeckler in his interview with mercola about coffee and chocolate.
     
  14. brettjv

    brettjv Titanium Member

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    Well, Eeee, I'm all for 'whatever works for you', but I have a feeling the coke method wouldn't work for many people. I know it wouldn't for me because as soon I started coming down off the coke my cravings would go through the roof ... which would drive me right to 'the phone' like a rat in an opiate experiment hitting the 'drug me' button.
     
  15. Eeeee Dub!!!

    Eeeee Dub!!!

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    Excatlly brettjv. I was already to start recomending his method to others but after reading the research and hearing from others experiances I think I'll just keep my mouth shut. Ha!
     
  16. pema

    pema Silver Member

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    I found an discussion about opiate PAWS in an other internet forum.
    Somebody wrote about "Hypoglycemia – the secret demon of relapse".

    This could maybe be the cause why I read so often the advice not to use coffee during withdrawal. But I did it and it was no problem. I did not drink masses of coffee to fight against fatigue but I drank a cup of coffee for breakfast and I never had problems with that.
    And I know that you are not allowed to drink coffee in some detox clinics.
    I believe, now I found the reason why.
    But what with other stimulants like (meth)amphetamine? Is there also a relation to blood sugar swings? Probably this has nothing to do with if stimulants are good or bad for withdrawal...
     
  17. fentanylwoes

    fentanylwoes Newbie

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    2 15 mg lorazapam with over the counter melatonin (lots) at night and on day 5 of this particular round of wd's, sleeping not bad at all, no restless leg at all, but quite lethargic with hardly any energy. The though of a stimulant just turns me off...of course, the pain has returned full bore which is the cause of this continuous hopeless cycle....least it feels that way.
     
  18. Chaz5773

    Chaz5773 Mercury Member

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    My Friend said Kratom Red Vein Thai He said mix it with Maeng Da 2:1 Ratio aka 2 1/2 tsp of Maeng Da and 1 1/2 tsp of Red Vein Thai. He puts in a water bottle and shakes it up and chugs it down. Then chases it with sprite. He starts boucing around listing to Black Sabbath Electric Funeral and Hand of Doom lol. Maybe even some Clash or Iron Maiden The Trooper lol He is Strange. Plus a sublingual vitamin b12 He starts hopping lol. Crazy Cat He is.
     
  19. I_8_my yellow crayon

    I_8_my yellow crayon

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    Though its very apparent in the replys, i8myc will also say that stimulants were a disaster during Hydromorphone withdrawal. Take the most terrible withdrawal symptoms one can imagine and then multiply them five fold. Thats with cocaine use.

    Caffeine was also a no go. Maybe towards then end of w/d when the worst has subsided one could use caffeine for an extra boost in energy, but thats all SWIM can imagine working.

    Talk to a Health Professional first, but Clonidine and a benzo like Diazepam or Lorazepam will help. Most M.D's will do atleast that much for SWIY. Temazepam was the only thing that provided sleep for SWIM.

    SWIY will find after a day or two into withdrawal, that they will crave sleep. Its a rare commodity during withdrawal. Therefore SWIY most likely won't have much interest in stims at this point. There becomes a point in withdrawal for most that all one wants is just one night of sleep, even 2-3 hours of deep sleep. SWIM craved sleep more than drugs afetr 3 days in withdrawal without sleep.

    Best of luck to SWIY.
     
  20. pema

    pema Silver Member

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    Ephedrine seems to have maybe positive effect on opiate withdrawal.
    There are some herbal opiate withdrawal "medicaments". Most of them are based on Traditional Chinese Medicine.
    Some of them have probably no effect other than making the producer rich. But there are some capsules that really seem to help.

    There is the "Chinese Formula". If you search online, you'll find discussions in some drugs forums where people tell that it really helped them.
    And there is another remedy that is called "Xuan Xia" or "Xuan Xia Qudu Jiaonang" (Chinese name) or Weinicom (Western Name). This also seems to help and there are clinical studies which prove that. Here are some examples. But there are some studies to find:

    Hao W, Zhao M. A comparative clinical study of the effect of WeiniCom, a Chinese herbal compound, on alleviation of withdrawal symptoms and craving for heroin in detoxification treatment. J Psychoactive Drugs. 2000 Jul-Sep;32(3):277-84.

    Kang L, Li B, Gao L, Li S, Wang D, Hu M, Li J. Tai-Kang-Ning, a Chinese herbal medicine formula, alleviates acute heroin withdrawal. Am J Drug Alcohol Abuse. 2008;34(3):269-76.

    Xiaoqi SHENG, Wenpu WANG, Feibao SHAN, Zhimei WU et al. A Randomized Comparative Study of the Effect of Xuanxia, a Chinese Herbs Compound, on Alleviation of Acute Withdrawal Symptoms of Heroin


    Both preparation seem to help (of course no wonder cure but it helps to alleviate withdrawal symptoms) and in both preparations is a herb that contains ephedrine.

    The "Chinese Formula" contains Ephedra sinica and Weinicom contains Sida cordifolia. Both are plants that contain a lot of ephedrine.

    I don't know if they add just a little bit of a ephedrine containing herb in order to help when you have absolutely no power during withdrawal.
    But maybe they add it because ephedrine has positive effects on withdrawal.
    A friend told me yesterday that he got 7 grams of good methamphetamine. The started taking a little bit and stopped onlay as everything was gone. He told that he felt no heroin withdrawal although he didn't take any heroin. After 48 hours when the speed effect left, withdrawal began.
    He told me that this did not work last time as he just took a litte methamphetamine but with that really big amount it helped until he came down from the speed.

    So maybe those ephedrine and pseudoephedrine can help during withdrawal.
    In the abstract of the study "Derik Hermann, Eckard Klages, Helga Welzel, Karl Mann, Bernhard Croissant. Low efficacy of non-opioid drugs in opioid withdrawal symptoms. Addiction Biology Volume 10, Issue 2, pages 165–169, June 2005" it seems that amphetamines will not help too much (nearly nothing).
    But those 2 herbal remedies help with withdrawal symptoms. Maybe ephedrine can help better than (meth)amphetamine. Or it's the other herbal components that help. But it seems that ephedrine has at least a little effect (maybe only together with the other plants).

    Has anybody tried to take ephedrine/pseudoephedrine or better ephedra tea during opiate withdrawal?
    Any experiences with that?