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Side effects - Stomach pain and cannabinoids, related or not?

Discussion in 'Cannabinoids' started by Potter, Jun 8, 2011.

  1. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    The other day I saw a rather crazy sounding rant posted about how "blah blah blah cannaboids lethal, nearly died, your all dumb, blah blah blah, if you are using them and have stomach pains get to a hospital." Everything but the last line was rather run of the mill freak out anti-drug stuff, but that last line worries me in concerns to a case that came up recently.

    The patient had procured a few grams of herbal incense (sorry vendor specific name can't be used) and had been using it for about a week, probably consuming about a gram total. over the course of a week. Monday morning the patient had sharp pains in the upper front of their abdomen, sternum area, lasting a few seconds each. The pain is pretty bad, enough they haven't been doing much other then sitting around. At first it was thought this was due to poor eating over the weekend, but two days later, that is clearly not the case. An appointment with a real doctor has been made for tomorrow, but the patient felt the above mention was a good reason to come here in the mean time

    I'm going to guess these pains are unrelated to the cannaboids, the original note was rather hysterical and the person had been using large amounts for extended periods. At the same time, the patient is concerned that IF they are, a doctor isn't going to know what to do.

    If this is a known issue, links to any medical literature would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    Re: Stomach pain and cannaboids, related or not?

    Three possibilities (surely more, but here are the three most obvious, in my opinion)-


    1. There is some evidence to suggest that certain cannabinoids may have local activity in the pancreas, resulting in a sharp pain the abdomen, around the area of the intestines (in your gut). A number of individuals have reported anecdotally that following heavy, prolonged use of synthetic cannabinoids of the JWH-XXX family (namely JWH-018 IIRC), a pancreatic status report from a physician proved some damage had occurred. This is still largely speculative, however.

    2. Cannabinoids modulate the endocannabinoid system (you already know this). The endocannabinoid system largely controls gastric motility via an indirect pathway (you may also already know this). Downregulation of CB receptors in the gastric system may result in decreased gastric motility and thereby cause problems with peristalsis, allowing blockages to occur, decreasing the frequency of bowel evacuations and causing abdominal bloating and swelling- this results in significant discomfort in heavy users (I have encountered a number of patients with this complaint).

    3. There is no relationship between the subject's cannabinoid consumption and their abdominal pains.
     
  3. birdman1967

    birdman1967 Silver Member

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    Re: Stomach pain and cannaboids, related or not?

    @Shampoo- My dog has never heard of issues with synth's and the pancreas. My dog has had US on the liver, chest xrays etc but never had any test for the pancreas. Would you recommend my dog be checked. He used 3g daily for almost a year. He is concerned he did long term damage and wants to get checked out to make sure he is ok. He occasionally gets abd pains but dr believed it to be from a fatty liver so an US on the liver was performed. He also had echocardiogram, stress test and pulmonary function tests, blood tests, urine, chest xray etc and all were clear. Thanks
     
  4. ChaseP25

    ChaseP25 Newbie

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    Re: Stomach pain and cannaboids, related or not?

    Hey Potter,

    My dog has had problems just like that, with a sharp pain in your stomach, feeling like you have a belly full of Tequila.

    It's a terrible feeling, my dog was pretty slowed down by the incident, it has happened to the dog on a few occasions using incense.

    Seems like to me that the cannabinoids are causing some kind of problem in your stomach.

    Incense blends can make you very sick, my dog tells me at least.
     
  5. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Stomach pain and cannaboids, related or not?

    Doctors said it was probably gastritis, general irritation of the stomach. The patient didn't bring up the cannaboids, not feeling like having to explain a novel substance to a doctor. Doctor said it wasn't any big deal and prescribed dexlansoprazole time release for three weeks and said there shouldn't be any issues after that.

    if there is any further issues, I'll update it then, but for now I suspect it was unrelated.
     
  6. calicrackthefinedoo

    calicrackthefinedoo Newbie

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    Swims been addicted BAD on herbal incense for about 4 months and are having the same issues. Swim had a blood test done to see if somthing is wrong and everything was normal except swim had increased liver enzymes. Swim has stopped smoking all blends/incense/legal herb, ect. And am going to quit forever. It's been 4 days and swim is having really bad withdrawal symtoms (sweats, increased anxiety, decreased hunger, mental foggyness, slight body numbness, abdominal pain.) But, the reason swim had the blood test was the abdominal started about 3 months into use and have continued to this very day. Swim is quitting use of all incense because his life is alot better without. The pain he is having is a burning aching feeling and usually always happened after he eats. The pain is located right below his rib cage and right at the top of his belly, in the center. Any advice would help him out, swim just want to get well and never touch herbal incense again.
     
  7. P1-O2

    P1-O2 Silver Member

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    Sounds like basic acid reflux. That's a common area to feel it.
    Especially if it happens right after you eat. Take some tums? :p
     
  8. Baritji

    Baritji Newbie

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    That's exactly how I felt before being diagnosed with a stomach ulcer.. If thats what it is, its Not a big deal if treated properly. He needs to go to a GP and explain the symptoms. No need to mention the spice if he is not comfortable with it.

    In the mean time, avoid nicotine, caffeine, fatty foods and anything overly acidic (tomatoes etc). Eat only small amounts of protein. Avoid milk.

    Keep an eye out for black stools, unexplained dizziness or the pain spreading to the back. These are signs of a worsening ulcer and need immediate attention.

    If you do have an ulcer, you will notice a huge reduction in pain within a couple days of being prescribed meds.
     
  9. calicrackthefinedoo

    calicrackthefinedoo Newbie

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    I really appreciate your advice, I've had an ulcer before when i was 15 years old and had H. Pylori. I do not think it is an ulcer because I remember that I had TERRIBLE tasting burps and breath from the H Pylori. I do not have that horrible taste. Could it be possible to have an ulcer without H Pylori?
     
  10. Baritji

    Baritji Newbie

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    Yeah it is possible. I got mine from NSAIDs (daily use of ibuprofen and Celebrx).

    Unfortunately, I don't have the expertise required to able to tell you whether or not spice could cause an ulcer.

    Smoke of any kind makes my ulcer flare up. Again, I don't know if it is enough of an irritant to actually cause an ulcer.

    I did find this though...... Am251 reversed the protective effects of anadamide (an endocannabinoid) in the stomach.

    Cannabinoids in acute gastric damage and pancreatitis.
    http://www.jpp.krakow.pl/journal/archive/11_06_s5/pdf/137_11_06_s5_article.pdf


    Abstract:
    Recent studies have shown that stimulation of cannabinoid 1 (CB1) receptor reduces the area of ischemic myocardial necrosis and affects activity of the digestive tract. The aim of the present study was to check whether the administration of CB1 receptor agonist or antagonist affects the stress-induced gastric ulceration and development of edematous pancreatitis. METHODS: Experiments were performed on rats. Gastric lesions were induced by water immersion and restrain stress (WRS). Acute pancreatitis was induced by cerulein. Prior to WRS or before and during cerulein administration, a natural endogenous ligand for CB1 receptor, anandamide was administered intraperitoneally at the dose of 0.8, 1.5 or 3.0 micromol/kg. A synthetic CB1 receptor antagonist, AM 251 (ALEXIS(R) Biochemicals) was administrated at the dose of 4 micromol/kg i.p. alone or in combination with anandamide at the dose of 1.5 micromol/kg.

    RESULTS: Administration of anandamide reduced gastric lesions and this effect was associated with am increase in gastric mucosal blood flow and mucosal DNA synthesis; whereas serum level of pro-inflammatory interleukin-1 beta was reduced. Treatment with AM 251 aggravated gastric damage and reversed protective effect of anandamide administration. Opposite effect was observed in the pancreas. Administration of anandamide increased dose-dependently the severity of pancreatitis. In histological examination, we observed an increase in pancreatic edema and inflammatory infiltration. Also, treatment with anandamide augmented the pancreatitis-induced increase in serum level of lipase, amylase, poly-C ribonuclease, and pro-inflammatory interleukin-1 beta; whereas pancreatic DNA synthesis was reduced. Treatment with AM 251 reduced histological and biochemical signs of pancreatic damage and reversed deleterious effect of anandamide in cerulein-induced acute pancreatitis. CONCLUSIONS: Activation of CB1 receptors evokes opposite effects in the stomach and pancreas: in the stomach, exhibits protective effect against stress-induced gastric mucosal lesions; whereas in the pancreas, increases the severity of cerulein-induced pancreatitis.
     
  11. calicrackthefinedoo

    calicrackthefinedoo Newbie

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    This has been extremly helpful and I'm pretty sure this is whats happening to me. Is this fixable with meds?

    calicrackthefinedoo added 4 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

    I'm really worried that I have messed my life up from a stupid teenage naive mistake. Hopefully I can fix this...

    calicrackthefinedoo added 22 Minutes and 42 Seconds later...

    Bump for insight. :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  12. Baritji

    Baritji Newbie

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    Yeah mate, you will be fine. Just get to the doctor on Monday and he will get you back on track!!

    Yes, the meds help immensely. You will probably be tested for H. Pylori (simply routine in australia) and given a prescription for a proton pump inhibitor. I noticed an immediate reduction in pain and an increase in appetite.

    Lots of people have made mistakes in an effort to escape! I wouldn't worry too much about it. You just need to learn from it and move on. At least you got away with a sore stomach and not much else :)

    6 months from now, you should be 100% the way you were before trying spice :)

    About a fortnight later, I was back to my old self. My ulcer has not fully healed, but the ppi completely masks the symptoms most of the time.
     
  13. calicrackthefinedoo

    calicrackthefinedoo Newbie

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    This has brought hope to me that i can recover from this. Thank you so much! While I'm taking the PPI will smoking cigs or marry slow down the process of healing?
     
  14. Baritji

    Baritji Newbie

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    No worries, glad I could help!!

    Nicotine slows down recovery...

    Not sure about mj, I did a google search when i was diagnosed and found mostly conflicting information. I definitely notice pain immediately after smoking, but have always attributed this to the smoke.

    I smoke mj weekly. My dr is happy with my rate of recovery.

    Let us know how it all goes!!!!!
     
  15. Sazh

    Sazh Silver Member

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    I used to get very sharp pains in my stomach atleast once or twice a day when I was smoking synthetics. I have not had these pains since I've stopped. That was with low doses(40mg) of strong blends.
     
  16. alexthemgman

    alexthemgman Newbie

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    My kitten had those symptoms and used cannabinoids quit often too. The pain went away eventually and hasn't return, he took a break for a month and things cleared away.
     
  17. salviablue

    salviablue Gold Member

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    Is there a consistency with the actual substance used?
    Most are reporting these effects after using some herbal product laced with JWH.
    Could it not maybe an issue with a common ingredient in the substrate rather than the JWH per se?

    TBH, I never understood why one would buy a "herbal product" laced with JWH, when one can obtain the 'pure' powder itself, making the consumption far cheaper. Also, I'd imagine that there be far more 'inactive' and thereby unknown substances in the herbal products than in precuring the 'pure' powder.

    Does anyone have, or is it reported that anyone has had, these symptoms from ingesting just the 'pure' powder and without the incidence of the herbal product?

    Furthermore for consideration, is that I seem to remember reading that smoking it self has a sort of "direct line to the liver", so, if there has been a taxing on the liver through either JWH, some common matter in the substrate, or otherwise, just the act of smoking could produce pains in that region (or do I need to re-read my anatomy)?
     
  18. dripdiddydrip

    dripdiddydrip Silver Member

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    It is very related to synthetic cannabinoids. Just as THC in the hypothalamus activate cannabinoid receptors that are responsible for maintaining food intake, I think with the synthetic stuff, as their action at the receptors is much greater, they produce hunger and particularly secretion of stomach acid even more. I'm surprised that it hasn't been discussed much on these forums, whenever I smoke any I get a stomach ache in my upper abdomen, where the stomach is, if I don't take many antacids and omerprazoles.

    Once when I thought I had paracetamol poisoning from co-codamol, as I was too lazy to do a cold water extraction, had constipation probably because of the codeine, thought that I was poisoned, as constipation makes me strangely tired, smoked a lot of AM2201 to make me feel better, as I wasn't able to reach a health food shop in the weekend to buy n-acetylcysteine, and for 3 days I had a very bad stomach ache, thought that I was seriously poisoned from just 4 grams of paracetamol, went to A&E (this was during the 3 days) got laughed at, accused of just wanting attention and trying to kill myself, the whole experience wasn't pleasant.

    However, with the great euphoria of the synthetic stuff, much greater enjoyment of music and food, it's still worth it, I just recommend anyone with any indigestion problems not related to recreational drug taking to take antacids before smoking it and keep doses moderate.

    dripdiddydrip added 8 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

    I looked it up, and the 3 days after smoking a lot of AM-2201 incense were kind of similar to Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, a syndrome that some heavy and long term stoners get, characterised by recurrent nausea, vomiting and colicky abdominal pain with strong stomach ache for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  19. MsKitty

    MsKitty Newbie

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    Has anyone actually found out why these pains are happening? Been using the synthetics for about 2 years now and just recently have been having pains in my stomach and kidneys as well. The pain in my stomach is usually around where the appendix is and re-locates higher and lower, but generally is on the right side. The same with my kidneys as well, mainly on the right, rarely sharing to the left kidney. The pain in my stomach however is always on the right side. Curious as to if anyone knows of these affecting the kidneys, and if anyone's found out why the mid/upper right abdomen is in pain/aching. I also seem to have much more sinus drainage as well. This stuff is highly addicting, I know I need to stop, but the odds of me having the will power to, are probably slim. Hoping there is nothing medically wrong with me and this is not causing any long term/ permanent damage. Doubtful though, because the "benzos" are benzene, which is carcinogenic. Cancer causing.. just a food for thought.. what isn't though now days?
     
  20. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    This is not an issue, chemistry does not work like this. We ingest shit loads of "toxic" groups attached to molecules every day, more then enough to poisoning you many times over, but unless your body breaks down that molecule in that specific manner they are not in any way dangerous.

    This is like saying "There's chemicals in your food!!!" Of course there are, there are chemicals in everything, we are made of chemicals.


    As for the topic, you'd best look for papers on the cannabinoid pathways in the GI track. I suspect not a lot of useful info will be out there, other then stop smoking these things.

    I was lucky, my state banned them, I didn't get a choice in not smoking. I got pretty deep in these for a year or so, 10+ grams a week of blends, compulsive buying and dosing. Had all sorts of issues off and on while using them, didn't phase me as long as I could get more. Didn't really have any withdrawals.

    Wouldn't think twice about smoking them after two years, not at all. Miss those drugs.