sublingual tinture affected by the wax content?

Discussion in 'Salvia divinorum' started by fnord, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. fnord

    fnord Palladium Member

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    from another thread here:

    quote from Salvinorin A:

    Now what's interesting to me, as someone brought up on the E-Dot forums...

    This extraction technique (techinque is not specified but were discussing salvia tinc.)has a very interesting segment..

    "If at all possible use 190 proof alcohol to dissolve the dark colored waxy extract because higher proof alcohol will make it tincture more effective. Also, the dark chlorophylls from the extraction will make the tincture far more effective than without it, because the wax both increases the amount of Salvinorin that alcohol can hold and also increases sublingual absorption of Salvinorin."

    It states that the dark impurities are better for sublingual absorbtion?? Hoowhat??? It was always SWIM's impression that the less impurities in the solution, the easier it would be for Salvinorin-A to cross the membrane.

    Has You ever tried this? the differnece between a clean and impure sublingual absorbtion? Because it is definitely peculiar.

    this dosent sound right to me at all,how would the wax help with absorption?
     
  2. fnord

    fnord Palladium Member

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    from another forum swim posts on,orginaly posted by SQUARE:

    Re: does wax effect sublingual tintures? - 30th April 2007, 10:04 PM
    Right, I want to get to the bottom of this one too. Time for a brief literature review on sublingual absorption of Salvinorin A:

    Abstract - I'M NOT A CHEMIST OR PHARMACOLOGIST; don't take this too seriously and please correct me if I'm mistaken. The main factors for sub-lingual absorption of Salvinorin A are salivation (keeping Salvinorin in the mouth without it getting washed away by saliva), blood flow to the mucosa (irritation and salivation leads to more blood flow, more blood flow means faster absorption), and pH (salivation is very sensitve to the acidicity of the mouth). These factors are all coupled. The effect of pH is hard to classify without direct experimental results.
    Sub-lingual absorption is also effected by the lipid solubility of the drug. The order of lipid solubility of opiates is the same as the order of effectiveness of sublingual absorption. The most lipid soluble opiate drug (fentanyl) is also the most rapidly sublingually absorbed and is also the fastest to cross the blood-brain barrier. This suggests that increasing the lipid-solubility of Salvinorin A should also increase its sublingual absorption.

    A bit of informal background for this informal review is available at:
    http://www.positivehealth.com/permit...alth/lea13.htm

    What's the Salvinorin Literature got to say on this:
    D. Siebert, Journal of Ethnopharmacology 43 (1994) 53-56
    http://www.sagewisdom.org/jep.html
    "Absorption through the oral mucosa. A 2-mg quantity of salvinorin A was dissolved in 1 ml anhydrous ethyl alcohol then sprayed on the inner surfaces of the mouth using an aspirator. The material proved to be active; however only a small percentage is absorbed this way before it gets dispersed by salivary flow. Consequently this method was inefficient and results were inconsistent."

    So, one problem with sub-lingual absorption is keeping the Salvinorin A in the mouth for long enough for it to be absorbed. Tinctures are on the market and are reported to work on Erowid so this can't be much of a problem - it might be helped by the irritation caused by holding a drop of pure alcohol on the delicate parts of the mouth, thus increasing the local blood flow. Having the Salvinorin A attached to a leaf or other substrate may also stop it washing away with the Saliva giving more time for it to be absorbed.

    One of the most interesting reads is Munro's thesis:
    "The Chemistry of Salvia divinorum"
    Munro, Dr Thomas A. (2006) The Chemistry of Salvia divinorum. PhD thesis,
    Chemistry, University of Melbourne.
    http://eprints.infodiv.unimelb.edu.au/archive/00002327/

    In review of Sieberts '94 paper:
    "Swallowing encapsulated [Salvinorin A] in very large doses (10 mg) produced no effect. This also held for the plant: an infusion prepared from ten fresh leaves, when swallowed, produced no effect in any subject. The same amount, when held in the mouth for 10 minutes and spat out, produced definite effects in all subjects. Thus, absorption through the oral mucosa is clearly far more efficient than through the gastrointestinal system. Nonetheless, an ethanolic solution of [Salvinorin A] gave inconsistent effects sublingually. The onset of effects is slower by the sublingual route, and the effects last longer. // Siebert’s results were soon confirmed by others. Ott and Gartz also reported that sublingual application of [Salvinorin A] was effective in acetone or Me2SO, with potency comparable to inhalation."

    I'd expect you have to be very careful using sublingual acetone or dimethyl-sulphoxide, both of which are nasty skin irritants! Perhaps they work so well because they irritate the skin so well.

    So it seems to say that:
    1) Its not believed to work if you swallow it in "large" doses, infused or otherwise.
    2) It does work if the leaves are held in the mouth or chewed.
    3) Alcohol solutions of salvinorin A work but are inefficient because it gets washed away with the saliva.
    4) More dangerous and irritating solutions are reported to be effective.

    Comment: There may be room to argue that 10mg is not a large swallowed dose.

    What about the general medical and pharmacology literature?
    I can find no literature that directly addresses sublingual absorption of diterpenoids. However, there has been a lot of recent interest in sublingual absorption of opiates. Most of the literature on sub-lingual pharmacology relates to opiates but still has some useful points relavent to Salvinorin A absorption:

    Sublingual absorption of selected opioid analgesics.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation
    This article says that, at least for opiates, hydrophobicity (how soluble something is in water) is an important effect on a chemicals sublingual absorption. The less intuitive result is that lipophilic opiates are better absorbed than hydrophilic opiates. It also says that the acidity in the mouth is important.

    The mouth is very sensitive to pH levels and acidic things (e.g. lemon) make you salivate more. This increases blood flow to the mucous glands which could increase absorption but at the same time, more saliva is produced which may wash away the drug.

    The effect of pH on the buccal and sublingual absorption of captopril (an acid)
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/t1231x1u61w72u01/
    This article says that the effect of pH on sublingual absorption of captopril does not relate to the partitioning chemistry of passive diffusion. The ideal pH for the absorption of captopril was 7 (i.e. neutral). Captopril is normally more soluble in acidic or alkaline n-octanol, not neutral. The absorption of the the drug is fastest when given in a buffered solution (one that is made to stay neutral).

    Buccal Absorption of Fentanyl Is pH-Dependent in Dogs. (Fentanyl is an alkaloid)
    Anesthesiology. 82(3):759-764, March 1995.
    http://www.anesthesiology.org/pt/re....htm;jsessionid=G2KWQ9Q8PQG4CpjX7TghdTl2BTFR1 Q9gTxhFz3FCvj8flBThBG2n!3145886!-949856145!8091!-1
    Fentanyl is best absorbed in alkaline solutions "because of an increase in the fraction of unionized fentanyl."

    The ideal pH for Salvinorin A is not obvious but could easily be found by trial and error.
     
  3. Salvinorin A

    Salvinorin A Gold Member

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    lol SWIM read this on the other forum too (was an active member, still am).

    Yeah, I wish there was a little more info on it directly affecting it. This might answer the question indirectly... found from Square's post

    "it might be helped by the irritation caused by holding a drop of pure alcohol on the delicate parts of the mouth, thus increasing the local blood flow. Having the Salvinorin A attached to a leaf or other substrate may also stop it washing away with the Saliva giving more time for it to be absorbed."

    So basically all that's saying is that the wax just helps the Salvinorin-A stay in place, and the alcohol just helps blood flow. So basically, I don't thing that the waxes actually help with absorbtion, they just act as a place holder in which saliva won't carry away the Salvinorin. There's probably a more efficient way to absorb it with clean Sal-A.

    I am expecting an email back from Daniel Siebert to clarify. I will post as soon as he gets a response.
     
  4. fnord

    fnord Palladium Member

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    I think that putting the salvanorin a on blotter would be very helpfull in makeing sure the fin stuff stays in one spot.
     
  5. Salvinorin A

    Salvinorin A Gold Member

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    Agreed. Especially if the blotter are made with something like rice paper or corn rolling papers. Apparently they absorb better, so I would assume that the crystals would form on the insides of the papers too. If one were to make it from normal papers (waxier types i think), then the salvinorin A would just form on the outsides. In that sense, possibly some chlorophylls would help stick it in place.