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    PLEASE HELP

Subutex is better than suboxone

Discussion in 'Buprenorphine' started by Orchid_Suspiria, Feb 7, 2008.

  1. Orchid_Suspiria

    Orchid_Suspiria Newbie

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    Swim finally got his doctor to switch him to subutex.He should have done this long ago.No more pounding headaches,no more sick,chemical feeling,no disgusting aspirin disguised as oranges flavor.It does pretty much the samething as suboxone but without all the nasty side effects.I would reccommend it to anyone unsatisfied with suboxone.
     
  2. e-spacecadet

    e-spacecadet Silver Member

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    My friend is looking for a Dr. to start her on buprenorphine ASAP so she can stop a daily heroin habit. Why would Suboxone be worse than Subutex?
    I realize Suboxone has the added Naloxone (opiate antagonist) but [why] would it cause side effects?? Anyone know?
    Researching for my friend, I found a couple clinics' reps who said the Naloxone portion is only effective if someone shoots Suboxone. When taken properly, sublingually or orally, the Naloxone is not absorbed, thus Suboxone & Subutex are virtually identical. True?
    My question then is, why does the literature say Suboxone users won't get 'higher' off opiates -- if the antagonist is inactive anyway?
    I'd like responses from people who have tried other opiates/espec heroin, while on 'Subs'. Also, if you take occasional extra opiates for breakthrough pain, will that be blocked or ineffective?! Thanks Much All!
     
  3. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    I had afriend whom was on buprenorphine. He would quite often have a shot of H not long after he had had his Bupe . . . he still said it got him high, just not quite as high as normal. Unsure if this was a special case in any way and unsure of his Bupe dosage. However he was blasting 0.2 to 0.3 at a time . . . .

    Hope this information has helped in some way. :)
     
  4. OccularFantasm

    OccularFantasm Silver Member

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    I have used while on suboxone and while not, as well as the day after. Swim noticed that his high was rather weak comparatively speaking when he was on the subs, and even the next day. The high was still there, but the rush was significantly less intense. The most likely reason I could think of was that the affinity for the receptors of the bup being higher than the affinity in heroin kept a lot of the receptors with the less euphoric bup and wouldn't let the heroin attach. After a day had gone by me could get just as high as before. Perhaps buprenorphine has a prolonged half-life that extends further than that of heroin? I was on 3 8mg pills at the time this was done, and on average shooting .2-.3g of dope.

    Some people are also hypersensitive to the naloxone, even when taken orally or sublingually, in which state the naloxone is supposed to be totally inactive. Swim happens to be one of these people, but unfortunately doctors rather dislike prescribing subutex over suboxone.

    Also, swim kept a suboxone with his cotton one time when he used; it certainly is VERY effective rapid onset of withdrawal if injected. This was just residue that had gotten into the cotton too, this wasn't melting down and shooting the pill. That last part was just in case some You decided, "it makes me sick anyway why not shoot it up", so that they would know it certainly would be far worse and with amplified side effects, in swims opinion worse than normal withdrawal.

    Hopefully that helps.
     
  5. e-spacecadet

    e-spacecadet Silver Member

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    I agree with previous post.

    When I tried to get on Suboxone it turned into a nightmare. Though the Dr. said to just wait another hour to take the 1st tab - and one held off for a another 2 1/2 hours, it was bad. One waited a total of about 16 hours, of which the last 4 grew quite difficult to tolerate. The disgusting precipitated w/d was a mind-f*ck. If one knew it would take over 20 hrs of not using, and wretching on the floor, one's not sure if it would have been tried at all.

    It seemed an eternity, waiting for the sub to diminish enuf to be able to feel ANY heroin. As swim recalls, it took about 14 hours from taking the sub to get a bit of releif. Even then, one used alot of h and only felt enuf to be able to sleep off the beating. Called a pharmacist in mid-hell to ask how long this was going to last. He said thou is SOL - for 12 to 36 hrs!!! So this partial agonist does have a long 1/2 life. One could easily find out exactly how long it is, but disgust for the substance leaves one no interest in it whatsoever. It's a bitch one will never encounter again.

    It's fine to use heroin on sub maintenance, but not the other way around. Huge difference.
     
  6. smithdogg1

    smithdogg1 Guest

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    I have taken Oxy's in varying doses while on varying doses of Suboxone.

    The short of it is if I have taken 4 MG of sub and then does 80 MG of Oxy he will still feel it, not quite as strong, but that could also just be in his head, it may block it, but only slightly if at all.

    I am very careful about doing things the other way around though, he has never taken sub while still high on another Opiate, he always waits until his pupils are Huge looking (this seems to be an easy sign to tell you are no longer high) then he will take the sub. Or he will wait until he feels like shit, he is very scared of the precipitated WD’s and takes great care to avoid them. Sometimes he thinks he can take sub after most of his high wares off in order to avoid feeling like shit but he never risks it and makes sure to wait 24 hours or until the WDs start to come on.
     
  7. e-spacecadet

    e-spacecadet Silver Member

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    It's not just in you's head. Sub displaces (knocks off & takes place of) other opiates from receptor sites. That's why it can cause precip. wd's if one is addicted to that other O.
    On smaller doses of Sub, there are still available receptors left for another opioid to attach to - giving a high. If one was on a high dose like 30 mg, there may not be enough receptors available to feel another opioid. Fentanyl is reportedly the one opioid that can displace the Subs/Buprenorphine, having an even stronger affinity for the receptors.
    Taking Sub while still high on another O would be a waste at the very least.[​IMG]
     
  8. cartonb

    cartonb Newbie

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    the reason subs make you sick when taken while high on opiates is the same reason you wont feel opiates after taking the sub. Bupe (active ingredient in suboxone/subutex) binds to the receptors in the brain very strongly or knocks the opiates off the receptors if there is any. Taking opiates after bupe is a complete waste of drugs. I have done a large dose of gooood heroin while on bupe and there was almost no effect. Yes you will feel a high dose of opiates on bupe but it really isnt worth it. from experience even a dose as low as 4 or so mgs of bupe will render your other opiates useless for AT LEAST 24 hrs. after that you will be able to feel most of the high. but on a dose of 16 mgs and higher its smart to wait a good 35 hrs to get the full effect of other opiates. but to answer the topic Q, I have been on suboxone for months until he switched doctors and got him to prescribe subutex. Suboxone has some nasty artificial sweetners in it and naloxone. though not much naloxone enters the blood stream when taken as directed subutex (pure bupe w/no naloxone) still feels better. Side effects like headaches and depression are more likely with suboxone and less likely with subutex. Also with SUBOXONE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SPIT IT OUT AFTER IT HAS DISSOLVED for a good 1/2 hr. Many doctors are not aware of this but it says it right in the panflet that comes with the drug or with the pharmacy script panflet. This is because suboxone has about a 10-15% bioavailability when swallowed and more naloxone will enter your system giving you more of the side effects. I know bein an opiod addict spitting out the drug sounds crazy but after being on that drug for a year swim knows for a fact it works much better this way. The subutex can be swallowed after you let it dissolve for a good half hour (depending on the dose, with 16 mgs taken at once I will let it absorb for a good 50-60 min.) because it doesnt contain naloxone or any of those nasty artificial sweetners. I LOVE BUPE its a life saver!
     
  9. Finn Mac Cool

    Finn Mac Cool Titanium Member

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    People sometimes dislike the nalextrone but nalextrone can help with cravings, remember bupe is a worse and longer detox than heroin for most people the trick is to taper to 0 :)
     
  10. chillinwill

    chillinwill Newbie

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    Just for future reference Suboxone contains naloxone and not naltrexone. Both of them are antagonists though but just wanted to clarify that
     
  11. Mr.Opi

    Mr.Opi Newbie

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    swim just got put on subutex from methadone and I find subutex actully to be very strong! I used to have a bad oxy 160mg a day habbit ..so swims usealy sniffs 1 or 2 mgs to feel high swim just likes to snoot he guesses.. and 4mg under the tounge to feel normal normal meaning not havein withdrals although I has experienced sum stomach problems and rare headacks from subutex.. overall I has used suboxone and feels it to not be as strong feeling as subutex it worked for its purpose but dident get swim high at all mabe some placebo but thats all subutex:thumbsup: wins this battle
     
  12. moreisbetter

    moreisbetter Newbie

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    I would like to except up where I live in Toronto, Canada, subutex is ONLY available under the most extreme situation. You need to get proof you would be allergic to the naloxone. Other than that, suboxone is the only choice in the category.

    moreisbetter added 6 Minutes and 44 Seconds later...

    I read on another forum taking less suboxone works better-and one can even feel that slight euphoric sensation again.
    I know I am not supposed to be looking for the 'high-ish) feeling, but I do. I'm not going to use my DOC-don't want to get sick and I do want to get off this roller coaster ride of my pain meds.
    HAS ANYONE ON THIS FORUM EVER HAD THIS EXPERIENCE?
    I am stepping down to 6mg daily from 8mg. daily and also was wondering what other effects I might feel.
    SO, anyone who has experienced either/or I would so appreciate a reply to this post.
    thanks, people!
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2011
  13. Photobug

    Photobug Silver Member

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    Subutex is better than Suboxone because it doesn't have the Naloxone in it. But there is a way to get around this. Sort of. It's called doing the Spit Trick. The Nalox may not get absorbed under the tongue, but it gets absorbed when you swallow your saliva in your mouth. So what you have to do is dissolve small amounts of Subox at a time. Like 2 - 4 mg at the most. Keep the saliva in your mouth about 1 minute to absorb all the Bupe in the Subox, but then spit out the saliva. Do Not swallow the salvia in your mouth. It has the Nalox in it. If you do it like this it's almost the same as taking Subx. Try this.

    Photobug added 6 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

    I forgot to add that with Bupe (or Sub) Less = More. That's an old saying. It means you feel better with less than more. There's a complicated chemical reason for this, but it's true. So stepping down from 8 mg a day to 6 mg a day should work well. Just don't forget to do the Spit Trick if you're taking Suboxone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  14. kailey_elise

    kailey_elise Gold Member

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    Yes, we've had discussions on the forum a number of times, & talk of the 'Suboxone Sweet Spot' comes up; it seems to be around 4mg/1mg for most people.

    Definitely search through the buprenorphine forum here - there have been some very informative discussions (with included studies to back up claims); Spucky has posted some good information about this in the past.

    ~Kailey
     
  15. RaoulDuke32

    RaoulDuke32 Silver Member

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    My friend always spits out the saliva after 10-15 minutes. It needs to be fully dissolved. Basically wait until you cant take it anymore and spit it out!

    Is there any medical evidence that the Nalaxone is absorbed when swallowed in the spit?

    My friend has a different theory: The "suboxone" buprenorphine/naloxone tabs have 2 different artificial sweeteners and that fake orange flavor. That alone is what makes me sick and gives him a headache.

    Try drinking a lot of splenda, thats whats in suboxone, and see if you dont get sick. The stuff was first marketed as a pesticide.

    Swim feels the same way when he swallows that gross splenda as when he swallows the suboxone.

    Just a personal theory/feeling. Probably doesnt account for everyone getting sick, as some people are fine drinking artificial sweeteners but get sick.

    My always heard that its the nalaxone, and thinks that its only true when people still have some opiates on their receptors.
     
  16. highballer

    highballer Newbie

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    What do you need to get subutex in toronto, as i am having side effects.

    highballer added 134 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

    I hope you get this, please respond back. THANKSSSSSSS!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  17. Photobug

    Photobug Silver Member

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    Highballer,

    As of a year ago, I don't think Subutex was available in Canada. I don't even know if the Suboxone film strips ever became in Canada? A year ago only the tablets were available.

    Which side effects are you having? When I first went on Suboxone, after a couple of months my feet started to swell up. My shoes felt too tight. Then my ankles swelled. Finally my legs from the knees down swelled. The Sub Doc was clueless about this side effect, and some still are. Medically it's called Edema and usually means a heart problem. So I was sent to heart Doc and he didn't find anything wrong. Luckily it was winter, because the only thing that helped were support hose stockings.

    Then I needed emergency surgery, and had to be on MsContin about 1 month. When I went back to Sub I was put on Subutex and I didn't swell up. So I stayed on it. But I'm in the USA. Today there are still Sub doc's who never heard of this, but many have.

    That was why I asked which side effects you are getting?
     
  18. highballer

    highballer Newbie

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    Thanks Photobug! This is a good site, as on others, we can't give recommendations, valid taper methods, ie. what worked great in the best. Dr. prescribed pharmaceuticals, ETC! How do you help one another is beyond me! Well I feel like zombie (flat affect, my stomache hurts, no appetite (which is good for me since I can lose the 30 pounds lost on "Done', rash, itchy, scratchy, unlike regular opiates. I get similar effect with acetaminophen, etc. Extreme headaches. I know, or heard on various forums that people have similar side effects with Naloxone! I have the leaflet here in front of me, for a total 115+ side effect from Suboxone, and only 14 for Subutex, hmmm? The other site tries to tell me I am an addict and wast to abuse BUPE! That could be farther from truth, as I got methadone with pure little amount of water, no juice and NEVER would be so stupid! I still suffer pain, now on Subs, although the side effects in general beats the constant sweating, hunger, wait gain, laziness etc. of Methadone! My story is soooo long and carried out, I can't write all for now! I know these all old posts, but I knew someone would get back that being you!

    Yes no Subutex in Canada, you guys get all the goodies, lol! Subs are somewhat new to Canada, but "should be used if responsible and all else failed. I would love to get licesne, but Dr. screws me around so much it hurts!!!!!!
    Please do get back!

    Namaste,
    Love, peace, bliss and new tomorrow of hope and harmony!
     
  19. Photobug

    Photobug Silver Member

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    If you still can't get Subutex in Canada, then there's little I can tell you. Do you still have only the tablets or are the film strips available? There's also a new company that is soon going to make Suboxone, but I forget the name.

    You think you are having a reaction to the Naloxone, right? Have you tried what they call the spit trick? Supposedly the Buprenorphine in Suboxone is only absorbed under the tongue, not in the stomach. We're pretty sure of this because 1 guy swallowed 3 pills and felt nothing. If the Bupe was absorbed in the stomach he should have OD. So the Bupe is absorbed under the tongue, but the Naloxone isn't. Naloxone is absorbed in the stomach. Most people don't feel it, but some of do. Like me and you. So the spit trick means allow the tab to dissolve under your tongue, and keep the saliva in your mouth as long as possible Without swallowing it. 1 or 2 minutes should be enough. Then spit the saliva out. Don't swallow it. That should help. But give it 1 or 2 weeks before you see a difference.

    How much Sub do you take each day? And are you taking it primarily for pain, or addiction?

    If you take it for pain, and if the dose is low enough, maybe you can go on the Butrans patch. The patch is pure Bupe like Subutex is. I have a friend on Butrans. The dose in it is so low, he can also take 1 or 2 Percocet a day for breakthrough pain.

    But start doing the spit trick asap. I hope it works for you.
     
  20. gmeziscool2354

    gmeziscool2354 Silver Member

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    i was always told the sub in subutex and suboxone was for SUBLINGUAL which means under the tongue. it is designed to be most effecient when used that way. definitely more effective than swallowing. the mucous membrane under the tongue is a special one since it has saliva to help the breakdown process of the actual strip or pill material. i've taken both subutex pill and suboxone strip & the old pills and used them in errr methods not recomended on the prescribing information and found some routes are better than under the tongue for certain medications.

    that being said, suboxone is 2 drugs. buprenorphine and naloxone. like all drugs different people react to them differently. i think some people react worse to the naloxone than others. some people tell me they get headaches off suboxone, and i've never heard of that of subutex. i just assumed it was the naloxone