Tagetes lucida (mexican tarragon)

Discussion in 'Ethnobotanicals' started by chilliker, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. chilliker

    chilliker Silver Member

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    Tagetes lucida a.k.a mexican tarragon is said to create visions when smoking the herb in combination with the consumption of fermented Tarragon tea, which is prepared the same way Sinicuichi is prepared. "closed-eye-images" similar to other herbs that were used used for divination. Has anyone tried this? its not to expensive either...
     
  2. INodHardOhYeah

    INodHardOhYeah Gold Member

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    When prepared as a mild tea Tagetes Lucida is commonly used (in mexico) to calm upset stomachs, soothe nerves, and treat hangovers. Tagetes Lucida or Mexican Tarragon is a member of the compositae (sunflower) family (as is sinicuichi).

    Tagetes Lucida (for shamanic purposes) was usually used to potentiate peyote visuals. Peyote was consumed by the shaman, followed by the smoking of a blend of Tagetes Lucida and tobacco in a 1:1 ratio. The alternative was to smoke the herb combined with the drinking of a strong Tagetes Lucida tea.

    Tagetes Lucida has been found to enhance euphoria when combined with cannabis, distinguishable from placebo, tobacco further potentiates these effects. Prepared as a strong tea, Tagetes Lucida produces sedation and mild closed-eye visuals, similar to sinicuichi albeit less intense.

    SWIM's reccomendation:
    San Pedro Cactus is brewed as a tea in the usual fashion (use less than one normally would, as is adviced when combining substances).
    Tagetes Lucida is prepared by kneeding and rolling leaves in water for a brief period of time (use judgement based on observation of the leaves during the process). The tea is then allowed to ferment in direct sunlight for one day. Consume both teas.
    After one begins to feel the effects, Tagetes Lucida is smoked (the smoke is a bit harsh and may be combined with tobacco or cannabis) until the desired effects are reached.
     
  3. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    Fascinating.
    SWIM worked with some mexican tarragon SWIM grew and found it to be indistinguisable from placebo, both alone and with weed. I did not try tea or combining with a PEA. This may warrant a revisit sometime.
    I do recall it was harsh to smoke.
     
  4. Thirdedge

    Thirdedge Gold Member

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    Swim grows this, he has noted definate euphoric effects from smoking very fresh leaves, and also the flowers, but the herb seems to loose potency very quickly after drying.
    While he has not really noticed much in the way of closed eye visuals, he has experienced a strange pressure feeling over his closed eyes as if a vision was about to come but never quite arrived.
     
  5. INodHardOhYeah

    INodHardOhYeah Gold Member

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    Yeah the freshness of the plant makes an incredible difference, leaves should be picked fresh and allowed to wilt slightly then used immediately. For this reason I would reccomend against ordering TL from a botanical supplier, even "extracts" which often times end up being nothing but finely chopped dried leaves. It's a beautiful plant anyway, why not grow?
     
  6. waxhorse

    waxhorse Silver Member

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    One of the vendors carries an extract of Tagetes...smells simply lovely!!

    My primate accidentally ate some. No effect.
     
  7. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

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    SWIM also tried Tagetes extracts which doesn't work. This does not say anything about the herb though. There are lots of shitty extracts of about any psychoactive herb around.
     
  8. genaro

    genaro Iridium Member

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    what about cyanogenic glucosides, coumarine and saponins that have been found in Tagetes lucida: are these present in big enough quantities to cause poisoning if large amount of plant is ingested?

    Could anyone that would have some experience with 'hallucinogenic' doses (orally) tell us what is the right dosage (of dried leaf? of fresh leaf?)

    I am intesrested as he grows some at home, but I am a bit scared at the bad stuff in it.
     
  9. Euphoric

    Euphoric Platinum Member

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    From the wiki:

    From Siegel's Intoxication (1989) p. 301-302

     
  10. Cindor

    Cindor Silver Member

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    According to wiki:
    Chemical Constituents
    * Anethole
    * Chavicol
    * Coumarin
    * Estragole
    * Isorhamnetin
    * Methyleugenol
    * Quercitin

    Seems like a good combination of interenting compounds, including quercitin and isorharmnetin, affecting CYP450 and probably potentiating anethole, estragole (methyl chavicol), etc.
     
  11. 69Ron

    69Ron Titanium Member

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    AFOAF has tried tagetes in the past but didn't get much out of it. With German chamomile he might get decent effects though. Tagetes taken with 5 grams of German chamomile brewed into tea, or 3 drops of German chamomile oil will probably be more interesting than taking it alone because most of the oils present might work better with a CYP1A2 inhibitor.

    Methyl chavicol (AKA estragole) can produce a very decent euphoric psychedelic trip at 200-500 mg as long as CYP1A2 is inhibited (this works for AFOAF and a few others but might not work for everyone). If CYP1A2 is not inhibited, it does almost nothing at all. AFOAF and a few others have been playing around with this psychedelic in combination with German chamomile for quite a while. This is a pretty nice psychedelic. It seems to affect more people than nutmeg does, and in a good way (as long as CYP1A2 is inhibited). It also potentiates the effects of other psychedelics (this is probably why tagetes is used with peyote).

    Anethole is an isomer of methyl chavicol and is rumored to also be psychedelic. I'll bet in combination with German chamomile its psychedelic. AFOAF has not tried pure anethole yet, but probably will sometime in the near future.

    AFOAF is planning to revisit tagetes lucida in the near future. In the past when he used it, he was totally unaware of the existence of psychedelic oils like myristicin, elemicn and methyl chavicol. He tried this herb many times, and did eventually get a tiny bit of an effect from it, but nothing psychedelic, and then he ran out of the herb.

    In all the history I’ve read, this herb is supposedly taken to potentiate the visions of peyote. It’s not used to induce visions on its own. But I don’t think the natives knew about German chamomile or other herbs that inhibit CYP1A2, which seem to help activate a lot of these psychedelic oils, at least in some people. The natives did however know about Banisteriopsis activating things like DMT orally, which is a very similar phenomenon.

    One batch of Tagetes lucida essential oil analyzed professionally was found to contain 95-97% methyl chavicol. That’s very high. That’s more than sweet basil usually has. This must be the main active in this herb. AFOAF has both pure methyl chavical, and also sweet basil oil high in methyl chavicol.

    If AFOAF takes 250 mg of pure methyl chavicol by itself, it produces a mild sedative effect and very slight visual effects. It’s so light you could easily not notice it. But when he takes 250 mg with 5 grams of German chamomile, he gets a full array of psychedelic effects comparable to LSD in a lot of ways. He gets lots of euphoria, mild stimulation, visual effects, etc. Without the CYP1A2 inhibitor German chamomile, methyl chavicol is uninteresting. It’s similar to how harmala alkaloids activate DMT orally in AFOAF.

    I bet peyote has effects on CYP1A2 and other enzymes, and peyote is actually activating the tagetes, rather than the tagetes potentiating the peyote. For AFOAF, elemicin is greatly potentiated by cacti, and not the other way around. LSA is also greatly potentiated by cacti. When AFOAF takes elemicin with cacti, the whole experience becomes a very strong elemicin experience instead of a mescaline one.

    I am going to have to get a new batch of this herb to play around with. With his recently acquired knowledge of things like CYP1A2 inhibitors and how they work with methyl chavicol, I’m sure he’ll be able to get better effects from this herb. He’s excited to revisit this herb.

    Besides CYP1A2, methyl chavicol should also be inactivated by CYP2A6. Both of these enzymes apparently cause 1-hydroxylation of methyl chavicol which presumably produces an inactive sedative. So for some people CYP2A6 may need to also be inhibited!

    What inhibits CYP2A6? Well cannabidiol found in cannabis inhibits this enzyme and should therefore make tagetes more psychedelic. A mix of cannabis and German chamomile taken orally (not smoked) should be very good at helping activate tagetes. The German chamomile will inhibit CYP1A2, and the cannabis will inhibit CYP2A6 (to some degree at least).

    What is a strong CYP2A6 inhibitor that is easily available?

    Apparently nicotine inhibits CYP2A6. No wonder natives mixed tagetes with tobacco! I'll bet peyote contains a strong CYP1A2 inhibitor. If it does, peyote and nicotine should activate methyl chavicol very nicely. If my theory is correct.

    Another CYP2A6 inhibitor is supposed to be coumarin, found in Chinese cinnamon (cassia). Cassia oil contains up to 11% coumarin.

    I found a study showing that star fruit juice inhibits CYP2A6.

    Curcumin inhibits CYP1A2 but enhances CYP2A6 activity. So turmeric should probably be avoided.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2017
  12. 69Ron

    69Ron Titanium Member

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    Look at this:

    This is interesting. I wonder if elemicin, like methyl chavicol, is also metabolized by CYP2A6. Drinking strong coffee makes elemicin have more mescaline-like effects. Could this be from the CYP2A6 inhibition caused by the caffeic acid in coffee?

    Note that caffeic acid and other CYP2A6 inhibitors help prevent cancer.

    Does decaf coffee contain a lot of caffeic acid like regular coffee? If so, this might be a great CYP2A6 inhibitor because you could drink a lot without getting too much caffeine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2017
  13. Lodewijkp

    Lodewijkp Silver Member

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    i read alot of sources and talked to some people about this

    actually it's meant to be ingested with syrian rue, nicotiana rustica contains harmaline alkanoids.

    i think fresh plant material should be used, dried plant material almost have 0 % potency according to someone i talked to. he also said smoking it destroys the compounds you actually need.

    smoking it or making a tea from it is a myth, i don't know where people got this from , maybe some psuedo shamans or something. keep fresh plant material away from heat or sunlight. it's even possible that components are not water soluble...

    seeds, root or flowers should be experimented with instead of leaves ( my opinion )

    i have other projects going and i have over another 100 species of medicinal plants waiting in line to be grown from seeds - i have not room or time to experiment with this plant.

    1. don't use heat
    2. don't use dried material, use fresh material
    3. use other parts of the plant
    4. use it with a MAOI.. maybe try a nonselective MAOI as well

    o yes .. thanks for your educative post ron ! thumbs up