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Opinions - The Best Nootropic

Discussion in 'Nootropics' started by Nanashi, May 4, 2012.

  1. Nanashi

    Nanashi Titanium Member

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    In your opinion, what is the best single nootropic.
    Meaning, which nootropic has the most cognitive/memory enhancing effects, least side effects etc.

    Please factor in onset duration, level of cognitive/memory/mood enhancing effects, side effects, and the like when making your decision.

    I would also like to know which nootropic stacks you all think is the best and why.

    Since i have started researching, I have found the following look the most promising;
    L-Cysteine , L-Glutamine , Oxiracetam , Choline , and Sulbutiamine

    In my experience, I have found adderal to be a very effective nootropic. But because of it's addictive aspects I have left it off of my list. I also left several others off my list due to side effects such as weight loss, addictive potential, and irreversible effects.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  2. Basoodler

    Basoodler Titanium Member

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    I've tried piracetam, choline, Sulbutiamine, b1 stacked in various quantities and variations. Piracetam alone with and without choline. Then phenib ut with b1, choline multi vits and creatine.

    Phenibut is hands down most active stand alone for me. Addictive nature be be damned, it just has so many positive effects it makes me gush :)

    I found the sulbutamine too speedy to combine with much of anything else, and did not get cognitive improvement from it. Maybe lost focus and raised anxiety. This one hits me like Propylhexedrine for some reason. I figure everyones chemistry differs. (Sub gram doses btw, I use a sub mg scale)

    Piracetam I am still trying to figure out. Somedays I think it helps, others I am not sure. I prefer to take it without choline, because I've had better results. I don't think its worth paying what is asked for it though.

    Creatine has always improved my mood, I've used it as a work out aid for years.

    I also have positive results with L-theanine in mood/anxiety/cognitive .. it just agrees with me for some reason.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  3. 10ftgp

    10ftgp Silver Member

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    I have used modafinil (prescribed), piracetam, phenlyethylamine, phenibut, picamilon, and pramiracetam. I would say that the racetams and phenibut improve my thinking the most. I notice at work it is easier to focus and deal with long term stress. Phenibut's nootropic affect is actually more of a next day thing but the racetams hit me rather quickly.
     
  4. snickers

    snickers Silver Member

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    Omega 3's and Choline Bitarate are enough... SWIM has bad reactions with too much piracetam, and there are a couple other strange ones SWIM takes every now and then, nothing too serious.

    But guys, I am not kidding you... if you haven't checked out ASMR videos yet, or Binaural Beats, SWIM finds them to be more mind enchaning / altering than any of the nootrophics... You owe SWIM.

    snickers added 23 Minutes and 14 Seconds later...

    SWIM made a list here...

    http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?catid=171&linkid=11967
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  5. Anamo7tram

    Anamo7tram Silver Member

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    no doubt nicotine.

    unlike most nootropics , nicotine is very well studied and has been shown to increase memory, concentration and reaction time.

    every time i smoke a cigarette, ideas pop in my head faster and my train of thoughts goes undisturbed longer.

    BTW, am not encouraging anyone to smoke, i tried Swedish snus (which is relatively safe) and had much better results than a cigarette, I believe this is due to the short lived nicotine spike cigarettes give rather than a continues supply of nicotine.

    I also use Piracetam, i didn't feel any effects and decided i wouldn't buy another 500 grams, but a couple weeks ago i remembered TWO things that i haven't thought about in YEARS, which i think is pretty cool so am gonna buy it again, anyways its cheap

    I like this combination because i dont need to take choline with Piracetam as Nicotine supplies the brain with Acytocholine as well.

    The only downside of nicotine is its vasoconstricting properties, but i play sports so i dont give it much thought.
     
  6. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    What makes you think that oral tobacco is "relatively safe"? There is a large body of literature which suggests otherwise, which is contradicted only by literature released directly from the laboratories of the snus industrial interests. Oral tobacco, such as snus, has been tied to a number of cancers as well as hypertension.
    Nicotine does not supply the brain with acetylcholine.
    The other downside is that, unlike piracetam, nicotine is highly addictive and causes hypertension, as well as possible cardiac issues and may cause more significant issues during the inevitable withdrawal from any consistent use.
     
  7. snickers

    snickers Silver Member

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    I guess I shone a poor light on piracetam. My personal experience is that it's not something to mess around with, however, and it could be over positivity on my behalf, but it really "rejuvenated" my mind/memory/ect for a lack of a better term, but at the same time, too much proved to be negative in effect.

    Nicotene, I am undecided on, in the process of quitting down to half of what I used to just a month ago, and yeah, productivity is down.

    snickers added 3 Minutes and 48 Seconds later...

    And when I say positivity, from what I can remember before piracetam, compared to after was night and day in terms of how much I could recall, remember, ect... it was like pieces of me came back. Again though, too much can be negative.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  8. Anamo7tram

    Anamo7tram Silver Member

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    1.None of those studies addressed Swedish snus specifically which is treated differently than other tobacco products resulting in lower carcinogenics. Comparatively, Sweden has one of the lowest rates of tobacco related diseases.


    2.Nicotine increases acetylcholine via the nicotinic cholinergic receptors, ill cite if you request.


    3.so what if its addictive? if anything its beneficial as the addictive properties will increase motivation to resume medicinal use of nicotine, in reality though, nicotine by itself is not as addictive as mistakenly believed( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16177026 ).

    4.Like i said before, Nicotine causes vasoconstriction which causes hypertension, if you cant workout for half an hour a day or stop eating buckets of fried chicken for the benefits of nicotine then dont use it.

    I been researching Theobromine to replace my workout routine, which can be used as a vasodilator,to fight hypertension and certain circular disease and as a mild stimulant but there isn't much literature on it.

    Do i even need to mention that Einstein and many more top scientists used nicotine?
     
  9. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    Can you produce a citation for this? How is Swedish snus treated differently and how does this result in lower carcinogenic potential? Furthermore, Sweden's rate of tobacco-related diseases has more to do with sociological and economic factors than the consumption of a specific snus.
    Right, nicotinic agonists induce acetylcholine release in the hippocampus and cortex, but nicotine does not, as you suggested, supply the brain with acetylcholine - rather, it simply induces the release of acetylcholine stored in presynaptic vesicles. This does not contradict the issues which arise from other acetylcholine releasing agents, which require co-administration of acetylcholine precursors to offset ACh depletion, such as choline.
    That article does not address the addictive properties of nicotine. It makes mention of previous research which discusses reinforcing properties, but reinforcement is not inherently equivalent to addiction, though they are interrelated. Nicotine alone is an addictive substance which does induce a physical dependence.
    I'm not sure that I understand the connection between healthy exercise and diet and the use of a substance known to cause hypertension. An individual who exercises and eats a healthy diet will certainly be put at less risk by the hypertension, but that does not negate it's existence. Avoiding substances known to cause hypertension is an intelligent move for both the cardiovascularly healthy, as well as the not-so-healthy.
    And Freud wrote an entire book on the benefits of cocaine supplementation. This means nothing, other than to say that academic intelligence is not an absolute precursor to a healthy, intelligent lifestyle. The number of successful scientists and academics who have used extreme quantities of alcohol, amphetamines, opiates and many other drugs is too long to list, but that does not stand as an endorsement and to interpret it as such would be a mistake.
     
  10. Dr. Chocoholic

    Dr. Chocoholic Silver Member

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    So, quick word on nicotine:
    It does not cause release of Ach, rather it is an agonist meaning it binds to the receptor which would normally be triggered by Ach. It actually binds with higher affinity than Ach and this is how the nicotinic Ach receptor got its name.
    Part of the problem with nicotine is obviously tolerance and this comes from the receptors becoming physically damaged and needing replacement or from compensation where areas of the brain learn to rely on the constant presence of nicotine and in turn lower their production of Ach.

    Nicotine is a powerful drug but the side effects are not worth it. Some thing equally powerful at stimulating memory, learning, and physical activity is caffeine. High caffeine intake has recently been found to be neuroprotective so there's that too

    Back on topic:
    Here are my opinions on a few nootropics
    Sulbutiamine is an excellent mild stimulant which makes it easier to perform long stints of manual labor
    Phenibut is an amazing anxiolytic and sleeping aid
    Choline is a useful supplement whether taking a racetam or not
    Piracetam seems so hit and miss. Can't decide whether it had any real effect...
    Theobromine from raw cocoa powder provides a huge mood lift and strong stimulant effect. Make sure it's raw cocoa. If it says processed with alkali that's the wrong type. Around 2 large tablespoons mixed into a cup of hot water will make a delicious stimulant beverage. Add milk or coffee for extra flavor
     
  11. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    Nope, nicotine does cause acetylcholine release, in addition to binding directly to some subtypes of acetycholine receptors. The ability of nicotine to induce acetylcholine release was established some 40 years ago. Via an indirect action on cholinergic nerve terminals in the CNS, nicotine causes the accumulation of choline in presynaptic boutons, which results in a loading gradient that pushes acetylcholine-loaded synaptic vesicles into a docking position, thereby inducing their release and the subsequent release of acetylcholine into the synapse. While the dopamine-releasing effects of nicotine are mediated by nicotinic acetylcholine receptors containing obligatory ß2-subunits, acetylcholine release via nicotine can be achieved via a mechanism requiring non-ß2 containing nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Nicotine-induced release of acetylcholine has been demonstrated in a number of cortical regions, as well as subcortical structures such as the hippocampus, critical for the formation and retrieval of certain forms of memory, accounting for at least some portion of it's nootropic properties.
    This is not quite correct. Acetylcholine receptors do not become "physically damaged," rather, they alter their protein conformation in order to reduce their sensitivity to agonist-mediated activation. This can result in alterations in channel-opening frequency and duration, and may eventually result in the downregulation (internalization or synaptic shuttling to perisynaptic regions) of the receptors, reducing their surface expression.


    As long as I'm commenting here, I might as well offer my opinion on the "best" nootropic. While I believe nootropics are variable enough that every individual must tailor their intake to their intentions, I do believe that there are a few stand-out nootropics in terms of efficacy and lack of side-effects. Namely, I believe that noopept and pramiracetam are exceptional compounds in terms of glutamatergic transmission. Both enhance AMPA-receptor activity quite effectively, with little to no side-effects. I particularly like noopept because you can hardly recognize the effects in real-time, but in retrospect or upon reflection can identify how profound their impact is. Noopept in particular seems to induce a state of calm focus which allows rational creative problem solving in a distraction-free mindset. I do not believe that there are major benefits from long-term over acute use, other than the accumulation of a steady-state concentration in the system. In other words, prolonged use does not differ in effects from acute use, but does result in less spikes of activity and a more consistent state of effects. I have explored noopept in doses of 10-50mg and found that 30mg is a highly effective dose with almost no side-effect profile.
     
  12. Anamo7tram

    Anamo7tram Silver Member

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    so Shampoo in a nutshell, do i need to supplement with choline if am using Nicotine?


    1.Snus as a delivery mechanism;

    Sweden does have one of the lowest cancer rates in the world due to snus.[1]

    Swedish Snus is a much better alternative than other oral tobacco products. [1]

    2.Nicotine;

    Nicotine increases endurance [2]

    the study in my previous post addressed the reinforcement properties of nicotine, without reinforcement addiction would not occur thus nicotine is not highly addictive.

    Nicotine affects the cardiovascular system but not to the extent you are implying, also the dose response of nicotine effects on health is flat. [3]





    http://www.tobaccoprogram.org/pdf/TC12349.pdf [1]
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16627574 [2]
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9245658 [3]
     
  13. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    As with all other ACh-releasing agents, it would be wise to supplement with some form of choline. However, just as some people do not supplement with choline while using racetams and are fine, it is clearly not a prerequisite. It certainly can't hurt, and some forms of choline have noticeable nootropic properties.
    Really interesting, thanks for sharing! Mind uploading those to the file archive if you have access to the full papers?
    I have no doubt that nicotine is an effective nootropic, it would be foolish to argue otherwise.

    To some degree, yes - but, one thing we have learned from animal models of addiction is that despite not having reinforcing properties, if a drug is regularly self-administered, addiction can occur. As an example, it is quite difficult to get animals to self-administer alcohol because of it's adverse effects (in humans, this is true as well but we have social reinforcers to aid in this process), yet once they start self-administering addiction is unavoidable. So, addiction and reinforcement are not mutually dependent.
     
  14. mkultra5979

    mkultra5979 Silver Member

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    I am thinking of trying piracetam and my question is if it's gonna give me some up-lift mood. I am still fighting my depression (started again taking sertraline [Zoloft] and mirtazapine [Remeron])
    1. Do you think that piracetam will help me?
    2. What is the recommended dosage for me (mail, weight 110 kg). The Nootrop sheet-pdf did not answer to my question. It says some things about Altzheimer disease and dosages for elderly people.
    3. Any other nootropic for major depression???
    I hate Zoloft (tried for two years Cymbalta and Wellbutrin, they were both useless). I hate all antidepressants and I really want to try something else (nootropics, herbs, etc.)
    Thanks, any answer would be helpfull :)
     
  15. Basoodler

    Basoodler Titanium Member

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    I did.not really get a mood lift from piracetam at all. I have had an unreal moodlift from phenibut, and a bit from sulbutamine. The latter was more an energy boost.

    Phenibut can cause major withdrawal in an extremely short period of use. Take heed and read all you can about it before giving it a try
     
  16. mkultra5979

    mkultra5979 Silver Member

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    Ah, sorry, phenibut is not available in my country... Do you think that piracetam is going to do something positive for my depression? I really do not want to ask my doctor, tho only thing he wants is to prescribe - sell me Zoloft !!!
     
  17. IreneP

    IreneP Newbie

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    To be sincere, I only tried one nootropic and it has worked with best results for me. I was able to get very satisfactory grades at my end of semester exams. I used to take 3 pills in the morning and I was able to learn more effectively. Now, I'm preparing for another exam and I'm on the same recipe, 3 NZT.1 in the morning and I manage to focus very good.
     
  18. Gradient

    Gradient Chem|EB|DMT Staff Member

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    Any idea what specifically is in this 'NZT' product? I'm sure you realize that NZT was the fictional drug in the move 'Limitless'; NZT is not a drug on the shelves.

    There appears to be a product out that's piggy-backing off the movie, however - and likely contains a combination of nootropics/vitamins. It'd be interesting to know what they're using...
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  19. snickers

    snickers Silver Member

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    SWIM has but their brain through a substantial amount of pressure over the years, for a lack of a better term. It will help reverse some of that pressure, jmo... yeah, you can an uplift, and that's the point at which it's going to throw you into overdrive and drop you into depression afterwards. It's not safe for recreation. So if you feel like you are getting an uplift, and you have issues with chasing high, then you're going to do damage to yourself for an uplift that nobody would ever consider significant to begin with... jmo...

    snickers added 10 Minutes and 8 Seconds later...

    I am not a neuro scientist, but I would guess that choline or just top selling vitamins will help at least a bit... if you are drinking, even it's just beer, stop doing that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  20. mkultra5979

    mkultra5979 Silver Member

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    @snickers
    Many thanks for the advices. I think i will try piracetam. I do not drink alcohol anymore and I don't care about getting high anymore.