Experiences - Tolerance: Build up and Removal

Discussion in 'Opium & Poppy' started by LostCelestial, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    Hey guys

    It's been a while since I went a day without a dose of something, and is now finding that although his daily tea makes him a happy little camper, with a looong attention span, he's finding that more and more he isn't getting any real high, even when making very powerful/large quantity doses.

    So, as SWIM seems to have reached the ceiling of what tea can do for him, but really doesn't wish to move onto harder stuff (at least not fulltime), and he was wondering how long any others here have had to Detox for to get back to the usual high.

    Beyond that, SWIM wonders if its possible to 'semi-detox' by having a daily small does to keep the shakes and the electric spiders at bay, and still be able to drop his tolerance ?

    Hopefully some of you have friends with some experience here :)
     
  2. killersnowman

    killersnowman Silver Member

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    I have always wondered what it takes to drop his tollerance. Does it have to be cold turkey? Or can he continue to take small doses and still reduce his tollerance. And if so how long said tollerance would take to reduce... Good thread
     
  3. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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    I am in the same boat...

    He's just finished a month long tolerance breack and will be starting opiates again soon, but this time he will take it alongside other things to keep his tolerance down.

    He will be using DXM, Ondansetron and Ashwagandha as they have all been proven (in rats at least) to be somewhat effective at preventing/reducing opiate tolerance.

    Was You using anything to help with tolerance?
     
  4. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    Day two done, having dropped the dose to 4 pods per day. SWIM seems to be fine, and says he will keep y'all updated as to if his planned binge has the desired effects.

    I hadn't heard about things helping with tolerance and will strive to do further research, although he thinks that he won't try to make his own DXM again, because he wrote off a whole lot of cough syrup last time. Sounds like a pretty rocking combination. SWIM kinda wishes he took Chemistry instead of Journalism *sigh*

    Anyways, will report back both about my non-cold-turkey detox and retox, as well as anything about the substances SWIBlink mentioned.
     
  5. killersnowman

    killersnowman Silver Member

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    How many pods does You usually consume? Did You cut your consumption in half? Thirds? Quarter? Thanks. Swim
     
  6. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    Ok... Some enthusiastic googling has turned up some interesting stuff, specifically about Ondansetron.

    Stanford medical school ran a study last year which seems to show that Ondansetron is actually pretty damn good at treating withdrawl symptoms, one of the researchers saying they were looking for a 'magic bullet'.

    If you want to read the release its here and makes for interesting reading.

    Much as the results look pretty good, SWIM suspects that obtaining Ondansetron prior to it becoming licensed for treating Opioid addiction might be a real bitch, since its mostly used to treat Chemotherapy side effects and lacks recreational value, so its not likely to make it to the street. However if it DOES become a genuine magic bullet, especially a non-narcotic one, then I think this is going to become a medicine cabinet staple for all opiate users.

    I couldn't find anything at all about ashwagandha, which is a shame because plants tend to be a lot easier to get hold of. Same story for DXM, but as ever I am happy to be proved wrong if You knows something I don't.

    Edit -

    SWIM normally takes 8 - 10, although he won't always finish his tea during one day, so its approximately half, perhaps a bit less.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  7. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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  8. Erytheia

    Erytheia Silver Member

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    Which cultivar does You normally take 8-10 pods of? I am aware that "pods" is a vague measurement at best but, for example, 10 gigs would be very different to 10 H&C.

    I have, so far, separated each week of daily tea use (SWIM's found she can't go without if she has the means to get opiates, of any sort) by at least a week of abstinance in order to avoid addiction. Tolerance, though, has flown skyward over the past year or so and knowing a reasonable means of tapering with tea would be good information to have under her belt.
     
  9. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    I feel he didn't look hard enough for DXM info, and has today found a bundle of forum posts that say it can be helpful, although he's still trying to find the science. Stay tuned on that, as the posters seem to be talking about a study.

    my pods are simply pods, with no strain name given, so they are unlikely to be as potent as the gigantiums or turkish whites or such. Although giving a dose in pods isn't hugely helpful, I was at a point where he just grabbed a set number and tossed them in a blender. Much as its inadvisable, I am lazy, and as the 5kg box he acquired has pods that are all of similar size and (so it appears) potency.

    I will give a gramme dose when he next makes tea, to try and give a better frame of reference.

    Sadly, I am sure as hell an addict, and about 48 hours after his last dose, he starts getting minor withdrawal symptoms, then tremors/depression/hot and cold flashes/whimpering/self pity the next day, which is why he's cutting down a little.

    Day 3 for those counting, and the same dose as yesterday. Tomorrow, I am going to cut further to 3 pods, then down to two and try to maintain that for a week to see where his tolerance goes. SWIM still has not DTs at all.
     
  10. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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    Dextromethorphan or DXM is an NMDA antagonist, Here's Study I found about using NMDA antagonists (including DXM) to prevent/reduce opiate tolerance

    http://www.opioids.com/nmda/memantine.html

    It actuall claims to not only prevent tolerance, but also reverse existing tolerance.

    Regarding the Ondansetron, it probably is pretty difficult to get hold of, I get it on prescription and it also works wonders for his nausea
     
  11. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    DXM is not really useful in the context of reducing withdrawal or existing tolerance. SWIM recalls looking at a poster at the Society for Neuroscience about adjuct therapy, opiates and DXM, for ppl suffering with a specific type of nerve pain. THey used an animal model of the disease and DXM helped reduce the amount of morphine needed for analgesia.

    These authors, Meyer & Quenzer, do a good job of characterizing the various substances that either block the development of tolerance or help reduce withdrawal symptoms off opiates.

    As far as the reversal of tolerance, its semi-permanent. PPl will always have cravings. PPL who were once addicted have a greater chance of dying bc they take larger doses trying to get a good high. Their body and much of their physiology adapted without the drug, but their mind still needed the higher dose. Those that avoid that fate develop tolerance much faster and their body gets used to the drug like its throwing it a welcome back party thanks to these brain cells called microglia.

    Iboga is the only chemical that has empirical evidence of reversing the process of addiction and reversing the changes in ones brain associated w addiction. its literally reverses all these changes that are permanent within your brain. NMDA antagonists help prevent these changes from occuring in the first place but dont erase like iboga/ibogaine.
     
  12. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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    The study i posted a link for states that DXM administered WITH memantine can reverse tolerance,

    Also Ibogaine IS an NMDA antagonist.
     
  13. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    ibogaine effects 5-HT transporter activity (Jacobs, Zhang, Campbell, & Rudnick, 2007), increases glial cell activity and the release of a substance known as GDNF (Haplern, 2007), decreases MAO levels, alters dopamine transporter activity, alters the release of norephrine, is an agonist at the kappa and sigma opioid receptors, and modulates the binding of opioids at the mu receptor. While it does have some NMDA antagonist activity if I remember correctly, that cannot be the full cause of its ability to reverse dependence and tolerance.

    Mementine, ketamine, PCP, DXM and other drugs in this class can block the development of tolerance when administered with an opiate concurrently (Meyer & Quenzer, 2005). They can also reduce withdrawal. While they do have an effect on tolerance, it is not as replicable as the effects of ibogaine. Plus, each of those drugs has there own unique effects. Mementine has affinity for a special receptor known as the NR2B receptor if I remember correctly. This receptor has been implicated in learning, memory, tolerance, addiction, and depression. Glial cells play a substantial role in the development of tolerance as well (Scientific American Mind).

    WHile NMDA receptor activity plays a substantial role in the development of tolerance, this study doesnt offer really anything new. Im not trying to say it in a derogatory way or mean. Buts its not as simple as administering mementine & DXM to reverse tolerance. Blocking tolerance and preventing withdrawal are replicable with these drugs.

    Reversing tolerance isnt esp since ppl are just starting to recognize that some of these studies can be deceptive. For example, ketamine is not an effective substitute for drugs although it helps alleviate withdrawal symptoms of a lot of them. Ketamine reduces withdrawal not through NMDA antagonist activity, but through mu agonist action,benzodiazepine agonist activity, and increased monoamine release.

    "These data indicate that low-affinity, clinically available and/or therapeutically promising NMDA receptor antagonists may be used to inhibit ongoing morphine tolerance. " Inhibiting ongoing morphine tolerance is one thing. It reduced the animials needed. But I think its an unfair assumption or conclusion to say that NMDA antagonist action reverses tolerance all together. Alterations in the NR2B receptor may reduce tolerance, but thats only one aspect. The study lacks looking into the various other aspects of tolerance and addiction. It focuses primarily on pain reduction which is different than euphoria. Kratom is much stronger than morphine in reducing pain in the tail flick test. However, its abuse potential is significantly less.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  14. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    Ty for the awesome info guys. The internet smiles upon those who argue about organic chemistry upon her all embracing bosom.

    To help clarify my understanding:

    Dissociatives in general seem pretty decent at treating some symptoms of withdrawal, but aren't so good at lowering tolerance, more you can use them to replace an opiate for however long until that tolerance drops by itself ? Or has SWIM misunderstood totally ?

    I feel that if this is so, that its not quite what he was hoping to find. Replacing pods (which are cheap and plentiful) with any kinds of street drugs seems to be a step down rather than a step up. He feels that if his detox ends up costing more than just staying on morphine, he may as well taper and detox for free.

    my tapering continues a-pace, the dosage being dropped today to three pods (40g aprox). He has not experienced any DTs at all, nor sleep disturbance or anything. He hasn't really gotten high, but he's just kinda generally fine.
     
  15. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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    No, NMDA antagonists such as DXM do inhibit actual opiate tolerance Zinc and Magnesium which are both NMDA atagonists with no pshcoactive effect both work to prevent tolerance aswell.

    Also with DXM the trick is to use very small amounts, doses much lower than anything perceivable.
     
  16. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    I think the science is lost on SWIM. TY for clearing up the misunderstanding.

    So, the trick would be to take a small amount of DXM along side tea, correct ?

    Would this dosage amount be small enough that I could simply take cough syrup for it ? Or would it require a DXM extraction or purchase of the drug ?
     
  17. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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    Yeah thats correct, SWIy should take it at roughly the same time as the poppy tea.

    Any ordinary OTC bottle of cough syrup with onl DXM will do, I use 'Benylins Dry cough NON-Drowsy' as its the best value for money and is availiable from any UK chemist.
     
  18. LostCelestial

    LostCelestial Titanium Member

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    Superb. I will see if he can acquire some in the next day or so, to aid in his continued efforts to detox. Luckily I have a pretty evil cough atm, cuz the local chemists treat anything you have to ask for like you walked in and asked for smack. One time he went to get co-codamol for his GFs menstrual cramp and got the third degree. Luckily I know an irresponsible online pharmacy so if all else fails...

    Today he is down to two pods (26g today), and is intending to hold his dosage there until the weekend and then see where his tolerance has gone during this whole thing. The addition of any DXM might well help, and we shall wait and see.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  19. blink1989

    blink1989 Silver Member

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    Sounds good,

    Let us know how it goes :thumbsup:
     
  20. bill23138

    bill23138 Newbie

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    Dude the key to using pods is to use 5 days in a row then don't use for 2 or three days. My pet turtle always does that and he never increases his dose.