Injecting - Tramadol and IV administration

Discussion in 'Tramadol' started by Memantine, Nov 22, 2006.

  1. Memantine

    Memantine Titanium Member

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    I am curious to know if anybody over here has had any experience with Tramadol given through the vein route, wether it was for therapeutic or recreational purposes. Also any insight into the pros and cons of using this method would be very much appreciated. Is it worth it? Does Tramadol provide a rush similar to archetypical opiates or does it's SSRI properties also affect the onset of the drug in the bloodstream?

    I am not a thrill-seeker but has always been interested especially over this pharm, keep in mind that he has no intentions to abuse of it but has access to a rather expensive pharm-grade source (100 mg/2 ml vials )and would like to know if it would be worth the try. He doubts there would be a typical opiate rush due to Tramadol's poor opiate receptor afinity but wonders if it holds maybe another secret?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2006
  2. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes Platinum Member

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    Never even heard of Tramadol being available through an IV vial. If one is going to use it this way, don't expect an opiate rush as you say. Be particularly careful with dosing as well. Anyone have any direct experience with this?
     
  3. Memantine

    Memantine Titanium Member

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    OK this is what I found from my local pharmacy website, it had to be translated by me so excuse any word that might not even exist in the english lexicon.

    "Posology: Dose must be adjusted according to the patient's intensity and sensibility to the pain. Unless prescribed otherwise, Tramal (Tramadol) must be administrated to adults and young above 16 as follows: Tramal injectable solution 100 mg/2 ml:
    I.V.: 1 ampoule (injection must be slow, roughly 1 ml per minute, or dilluted on infusion)
    I.M.: 1 ampoule S.C.: 1 ampoule, up to 4. If pain-relief is not achieved thoroughly after a single dose of 50-100 mgs of active substance,..., a second single dose of 50 mg can be administered. With accute pain the demand should probably be higher. In this case the single highest dose of Tramadol (100 mg) can be administered as the initial dose. Depending of the degree of pain, the analgesic effect lasts from 4 to 8 hours. In general, it is not necessary to exceed 400 mg daily.
    Geriatric Patients. With accute pain dosage adjustement is not necessary as Tramal is given 1 or few times a day. Usually with chronic pain dosage adjustment is not required with elderly patients (up to 75 years) that dont have a manifest hepatic or bladder insufficiencies."

    From this and other info I've gathered from english resources it seems that Tramadol is probably about 30% more potent in IV form, this makes sense as oral bioavalability is usually reported as 70-75%. What is quoted above is obviously cut up to just refer to vial and syringe administration but if you read the whole text there is not dramatical change between oral dosage and IV dosage compared to other pharms (Morhpine for example).

    I wonder if the indication to administer the solution slowly over the space of a minute is given to avoid any pleasant rush and/or nausea and other problems derived from drugs pushed too fast into the bloodstream. I know for a fact this is an idication given to all nurses in hospitals in the case of Morphine, both to not shock the patient's body and prevent nausea and also to not give a powerful initial rush of the drug into the brain. What are your thoughts on this?
    Maybe this indication is also given because it seems Tramadol is not water-soluble enough and thus is prepared as an emulsion. Emulsions given too quickly are known to give pain (think Diazepam injectable emulsions which are also advised to be given slowly, this time specifically for the pain). I havent done any investigation on Tramadol's water solubility though so this stays suspended until more info is gathered.

    Of course this needs further investigation but something tells SWIM this might no be dangerous if done responsibly and testing from the bottom upwards. 50 mgs might be a good starter dose. I am still doubtful about this and will await for more replies but for the time being, are there 2 ml syringes with needles thin enough to not cause pain and excessive damage to a vein?

    The same text suggests there might be some sort of serotonin related rush, at least in terms of side effects, like sweating, elevated body temperature among other things that can be also easily attributed to any opiate in action. The text was translated yesterday, Im posting today so I dont have the text in my hands right now but there were more suggestions for this...

    Do not take this as an advice or invitation to try this at home kids, it seems this is uncharted waters for now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006
  4. Klaus

    Klaus Newbie

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    I was given 2 lots of iv Tramadol while in A+E with NO analgesic effect.

    I was then given Dia morph IM which was a welcome relief.

    I have found Tramadol Caps to be of no use analgesic wise either.
     
  5. Memantine

    Memantine Titanium Member

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    thanks for sharing your experience and especially for providing it so fast. Could you give a little more insight into it though? It seems you're the kind of people that don't get much of Tramadol, analgesia or recreational-wise. Correct me if I'm wrong here tho, did you feel anything considerable when you were given IV tramadol? Or have you or You partaken in more experimentation with this pharm appart from when you where in the hospital? I guess if You did he didnt get much of it either.
    Tramadol is a very picky molecule and it seems to provide a plethora of different reactions more than almost any other drug out there from what I've heard and read. It isn't at all strange that Dia Morp was a welcomed relief to you.
     
  6. Psych0naut

    Psych0naut Platinum Member

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    Lucky sod, You got a medical heroine injection:D
     
  7. Memantine

    Memantine Titanium Member

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    Yes indeed. I know this is gonna sound stupid and probably unsensitive (no pun intended), because he was probably in a lot of pain but I would still like to be on his shoes, I think there's nothing better than pharm-grade stuff.
     
  8. Klaus

    Klaus Newbie

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    I was getting it every four hours ! But only for 11 days .
     
  9. Memantine

    Memantine Titanium Member

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    OK, here's the first update on an experiment this guy decided to partake on for the love of Science. This is his account:

    I procured the 100mg/2ml Tramal vials. The first problem was finding a suitable syringe to inject via IV because the finer needle gauges come with 1 cc needles and up from there needles tend to get bigger and larger. I had to settle with a 3cc syringe with a 21 G needle. This one was acutally less problem than the usual insulin syringe as the needle fits nicely along the vein and is strong enough to keep the vein after the tourniquet is losened off. The injection went as smooth as a nurse's (I've had very rough nurses tho').

    As it entered my bloodstream I could feel the liquid giving this cold sensation probably because of the excipients, I've felt this before in the ICU when I was connected to a serum and ketoprofen machine; the cold subsided when I started injecting it more slowly, but I still didn't obey the instructions and put it all in ~30 seconds. No ill effects noted save for a very mild increased in sweating and my senses were amplified to the point smells around me were somewhat annoying. There was rush but nothing overwhelming and at first I was rather stimulated instead of being doped out. The rush def. had an opiate quality but all in all it was different, and not at alll that marked or intense as with classic opiates; probably because of the SSRI action I could feel some sort of serotonergic rush as well, my pupils at that time were dilated and I was reminded somehow of previous MDA experiences albeit much much more subtle. After that I was more stimulated than with an oral dose but also with much inner peace and relaxation, no anxiety or agitation at all; if you've ever taken Tramadol you'd know what I mean.

    After this the Tramadol began acting as it usually does but in a slighlty quicker pace and eventually the "nodding plateau" settled in. This was also more marked, but not that much, it was as if I had taken 150-175 mgs orally. Now my pupils were pin-sized and at this stage (+4 hours?) I was nodding on and off pretty easy and happily. I couldn't say for real as this is a very subjective appreciation but this time the opiate high took on a very different turn, I actually felt like if I had taken a small amount of K as while nodding I was quite out of it with my thought processes, I felt dissacoiated and everything I thought, felt and saw inside my head was much more strange and absurd than usual but in the end made much more sense emotionally than almost anything one would think sober, think of the typical "ketamine epiphanies". I'm not a very visual person, with psychedelics I actually tend to lean more towards the physical aspect of the trip and dont get as much visuals than the rest with most substances; the strange thing is that on IV Tramadol I could close my eyes and have very distinct CEVs as well as rippling effects and other visual abnormalities. And when nodding, the imagery was MUCH more vivid, bizarre and intricate than normal. My thought patterns were going very rapidly and chaotically, if only I could recall the ideas I got that night; it was like the verbal equivalent of those wild fractals one sees under the influence of DMT.

    Overall, with this first experience I can say that Tramadol acts pretty much like when taken orally, following the same chronology of actions or "plateaus" but feeling much more clean, no nausea or confusion whatsoever. The only difference was with the onset, a slightly shorter duration, a strange dissociative quality and the addition of very mild rush probably not that interesting for most IV users- Also, the opiate body buzz unexpectedly begun around 20 minutes after injection, very gradually taking hold up to the peak of the nodding plateau when it became very marked. When taking orally the opiate buzz manifests istelf along with the SSRI action during the onset and is much more marked throughout the "high".

    It is important to note that I have been taking this medication between days and before the experiment I already had some tolerance built up plus some prior serotonin tweaking (although significantly before). I intend on taking a break from this habit and repeat the experience again with my body clean and serotonin replenished this time to avoid any doubts."

    Hope this helped. Nor SWIM nor I encourage IV administration, this was done with proper preparation and with Tramadol injectable solution, no pills. I doubt anyone would even care to experiment with this as the results are not that magnificent, but if you do, please procure yourself some vials instead of trying to shoot pills. I am going to stick with oral administration as for the time being, Tramadol IV'ing doesnt seem worth the price of the vials.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2006
  10. Memantine

    Memantine Titanium Member

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    Forgot to add something. As usual with SWIM and Tramadol he couldn't sleep that well during the night of the experiment and the day after he still has some lingering effects and pupils are still pretty tiny. He slept very little yet he isn't fatigued (for the time being) and his mood is good, feels cleaner than a regular oral day-after (and for that matter, any opiate "day-after").
     
  11. Fantasian

    Fantasian Gold Member

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    Another awesome report, And an interesting read. Keep the IV experiences coming SWIF looks forward to reading them everytime.
     
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