Trichocereus vs Peyote

Discussion in 'Peyote & San Pedro' started by Cyano, Jul 28, 2005.

  1. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    What reason could one have to grow Peyote instead of Trichocereus
    cacti? Trichocereus grows much faster and produces more mescaline in
    the same time. Does Peyote give a better effect?
     
  2. transit

    transit Newbie

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    Peyote and San Pedro have a different alkaloid mix, although
    mescaline is the dominant active alkaloid in both. </span>As such they give somewhat different
    experiences. </span>As for which is better, that
    is a matter of personal preference.


    Reportedly one can have the peyote experience by using
    Trichocereus sourced mescaline along with one peyote button, rather than the
    larger number of peyote buttons typically used in an experience based only on
    peyote.
     
  3. GDxCAT

    GDxCAT Titanium Member

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    Cyano actually peyote has more mescaline by weight than trichocerius cactii.
     
  4. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    Yes, of course Peyote contains more mescaline, but if one had the pure
    alkaloids of both, would the extra other types of alkaloids in Peyote
    be worth the trouble?

    I am planning to grow cacti indoors under artificial light. I have to choose between Trichocereus and Peyote.

    Peyote I would grow like this: I will saw 72 Peyote cacti, put them in
    5cm (2 Inch) pots and place them in 3 rows of 24 cacti under 2
    fluoroscent lights of 120cm (4 feet) long. One year later I do the
    same. Also the third year, the fourth and the fifth year. (I assume
    that they are ready to harvest in 5 years). Then I have 72 cacti that
    are 5 years old, 72 that are 4 years old, 72 that are 3 years old and
    so on. After 3 Years of growth I probably will have to use larger
    pots/more flouroscent tubes. After 5 years I could harvest 72 cacti
    (6x12cacti making 6 portions a year) each year. I also would have to
    saw 72 new cacti each year.

    Trichocereus (probably Peruvianus) I would grow like this: I will saw
    12 cacti and place them in 2 rows of 6 cacti under flouroscent tubes.
    When they are small I place them in smaller pots saving
    light/electricity. Eventually I place them in 20cm (8 inch) pots in 2
    rows of 6 cacti under 6 fluoroscent tubes of 120cm (4 feet) long. My
    intention is to let them grow for 4 years. If they grow 30 cm (1 foot)
    a year, after 4 years they would be 120cm (4 feet) long and each cactus
    should represent 2 portions. (also 6 portions a year) When they get
    larger I also have to light them from the sides. (1 tube every 30cm
    (foot) length)

    Which method would be best or is there a better one? (for various reasons I don´t want to use Metal Halide Lamps)
     
  5. cactus

    cactus Silver Member

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    i wouldnt bother growing peruvianus under lights, they grow quick enough outdoors. Peyote is much more rewarding to grow. i got mine under lights and they flower every week, in 6 months they are 50% bigger (under 1000MH) but its not worth growing them alone ;)
     
  6. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    In my experience, T. Peruvianus is not as reliable as T. Pachanoi or T.
    Bridgesii in producing alkaloids. In other words, there seems to
    be greater likelihood of getting a weak Peruvianus than a Pachanoi or
    Bridgesii. Also it is easier to identify pachanoi and bridgesii
    for certain, than it is to identify peruvianus for certain. Many
    trichcereus hybrids can look like peruvianus. A lot of people
    even confuse Stetsonia Coryne with T. Peruvianus, especially with young
    plants.



    Agree with cactus, grow the trichocereus outside if you can where you live.



    One thing about trichocereus species, they naturally branch, and can be
    cut or injured in ways to stimulate branching. Given the same
    number of starting plants, you have the potential to wind up with more
    at the 5-year mark in sheer quantity than peyote.



    Why do you "have" to choose? Why not grow some of all of
    it? That way, you can be rewarded with a journey from your
    trichocereus after the first year, and each year after that, while you
    are waiting on the peyote to be ready.
     
  7. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    The problem is that I have only a small balkony for outdoorgrow.
    Besides that the weather in NL, where I live, is not very good. This
    summer, for example, is a bad one again.

    Indoor growing costs space and money. I´m afraid I cannot grow both ones at the same time.
     
  8. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    Sorry for that. Maybe your weather (climate) is not as cacti
    friendly as mine here in the Sonora Desert. But the political
    climate, as far as drugs, especially cannabis, is much more favorable
    there in NL.



    I guess we'll have to envy eachother's better points.



    Still, in your situation, I'd say go with the T. Pachanoi and T.
    Bridgesii, given your situation; for fastest growth, and best long term
    repeat harvestability of the cacti. Maybe just have one
    lophophora in there for the practice of growing it, and for the beauty
    of looking at it[​IMG]
     
  9. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    I also believe that with Trichocereus types it is easier to produce
    alkaloids. I also would have a considerable lesser number of cacti. For
    me it is easier to grow a few plants than a lot. With a few cacti I
    know every cacti and can give him special attention. With a lot (360
    Peyotes after 5 years) this is not possible.

    Unfortunately I already bought 60 Peruvianus seeds. I hope there will be not to many weak ones amongst them.
     
  10. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    Seeds??!!



    My, you DO want to wait a long time, don't you! Though I do salute your ambition in starting from seeds.



    You should be starting your garden off with cuttings. Get
    cuttings of Trichocereus Pachanoi and Trichocereus Bridgesii. If
    you start off with good cuttings of known alkaloidal profile, you'll
    have a crop to taste within one year. By seed, it'll take you
    many years until harvest.



    There are many places on the internet you can buy good cuttings.
    But there is a free method to obtain cuttings. It's called
    swapping.



    When you swap, you trade any seeds, cuttings, or dried herbs you may
    have on hand, for something someone else has on hand. The only
    money involved, is each person in the trade pays his own postage to
    send his trade stock to the other person.



    There is such a place, I am a member there too, that deals in trading
    ethnobotanical seeds, cuttings, and herbs. It is not a commercial
    site or business, so I hope it does not violate the rules to post the
    link. If it does, moderators please delete the link from this
    post.



    http://botanicalswap.org/mx/index.php



    It is strictly a place to trade. The type of posts you see here
    on drugs-forum, regarding usage tips or trip reports, are not allowed
    there.

    One can only trade there, and post questions or tips on cultivation of the plants.



    Trading internationally happens all the time. One should not
    trade/send plants to a country where that plant is illegal. Also
    when trading internationally, live plants need to be either cuttings or
    bare root. Most countries customs departments will not allow a
    shipment in if there is soil in the package, as they do not want to
    risk the spread of plant diseases, or insects. When trading from one person
    to another in the same country, shipping live plants in soil is
    generally allowed, depending on the country.






    Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo
     
  11. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    Here is a partial list of the plants I have been able to obtain for
    myself, for free (less postage costs) by trading over the last 3 years,
    all cacti and succulents:




    Fouquiria Spendens (3 each)

    Fouquiria Columnaris

    Fouquiria Macdougalii (2 each)

    Hesperaloe Parviflora (2 each)

    Agave Americana (2 each)

    Sceletium Torturosum (10 each; some in ground, some in hanging baskets)

    Agave Victoria Reginae

    Euphorbia Tircicalli

    Euphorbia Fruticosa

    Euphorbia Leucodendron

    Beaucarnea Recurvata

    Trichocereus Terscheckii

    Trichocereus Pachanoi (12 each)

    Trichocereus Bridgesii (3 each)

    Trichocereus Peruvianus (5 each)

    Trichocereus Candicans

    Carnegiea Gigantea

    Optunia Ficus Indica (3 each)

    Pachycereus pringlei

    Pachycereus Marginatus

    Pacycereus Pectin Arboriginum (2 each)

    Epostoa Melanostele

    Cereus Peruvianus

    Hylocereus Polyrhizus

    Gymnocalycium Denudatum

    Ubelmannia Pectinifera

    Oreocereus Celsianus

    Mamillaria Pringlei

    Ariocarpus Retusus (2 each)

    Ariocarpus Fissuratus (2 each)

    Epithelantha Micromeris (3 each)

    Cereus Aethiops

    Echinocactus Grusonii

    Optunia Basilarus

    Optunia Engelmannii

    Stetsonia Coryne (3 each)

    Mamillaria Nejapensis

    Notocactus Roseoluteus

    Myrtillocactus Geometrizans

    Gymnocalycium Baldianum

    Trichocereus Spachianus (2 each)

    Lophophora Caespitosa (1 with own roots, 1 grafted to Trichocereus)

    Notocactus Magnificus

    Gymnocalycium Saglionis

    Notocactus Schlosseri

    Polaskia Chichipe

    Echinocereus Merkeri

    Stenocereus Pruinosus



    I have many other genera of plants besides cacti and succulents in my garden, also obtained by trading. Give it a try.



    Please note that none of the plants on my list are up for trade, I'm
    just growing them out. This post is not an attempt to use
    drugs-forum as a place to trade. It's just an example of what is
    possible for you other people out there, if you decide to get into
    trading yourselves.



    As I mentioned, I am also a member of the Botanical Swap Project.
    If I had anything to trade (which I don't at the moment), it
    would be posted over on that forum. So please do not PM me here asking
    for plants. I expect to have some offerings for trade in a few
    more months, after some of my stuff grows out a little more. When
    I do, they will be listed over at the BSP.

    </span>
    Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo
     
  12. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    Yes, seeds take some time. I know a place here where they sell 15-20cm
    (6to 8 inch) unrooted cuttings for 7,50 Euro. But I did not buy them
    instead of seeds because I am afraid they need some time to adjust to
    my environment. Last year I bought a 2 feet cutting for consumption and
    received, with that order, a free 3 inch cactus. I put him behind the
    window and it took several month until he got the growth pattern that
    my other cacti behind the window have. (Due to poor light conditions
    they grow quite thin) Rooting takes some time as adjusting to their new
    environment. I thought I could just as well use seeds. For a quick
    harvest I can still put my window cacti under the lights.

    Another reason I chose seeds is that I want to have a lot of cacti so I
    can select those that grow best under artificial light. I hope, in the
    long run, this way I get the most out of my electric bill. I am afraid
    to use to much electricity because than they might suspect me of
    growing marijuana. Growing cacti is legal around here, marijuana is
    not. Smoking and possessing small amounts of MJ is tolerated here but
    not entirely legal. Growing is not legal at all. They tolerate 4 plants
    at the most.
     
  13. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    I wish I could be "tolerated with 4 plants"[​IMG]



    For what you are trying to do, with the natural selection of plants
    that like the artificial light, the seeds might be best route.



    Though a lot of people who trade, live up north somewhere in the world
    like you do, and they are also growing under artificial light. Maybe a
    trade from someone with similar lighting conditions would suit you?
     
  14. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    It´s getting worse here too. One has not to be afraid of criminal
    charges. People with up to 1.000 plants often (if they are busted the
    first time) are sentenced only for 180-240 hours of public service. But
    they say you earned so much money and you have to pay it back.
    You also have to pay taxes over the criminal income. If you are growing
    in an appartement the corporation, from who you rented the appartement,
    can throw you out. Not because it is forbidden but because they say
    those lamps are dangerous (are not made for use in appartements), the
    appartement is not meant for commercial activities and the moisture is
    ruining the appartement. It is difficult to find a new appartement with
    another corporation. They put your name on a black list.

    I do not know if the people who trade cacti here are growing them under
    lamps. I think they have greeenhouses. But I will ask next time I come
    there. Cuttings are of course much faster but if not I have to buy
    cacti for consumption until my first harvest.
     
  15. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    Yea, they are growing them with lamps. I read the threads about
    that, but don't have much to say in there because I grow in the
    sun. Interesting reading though.



    Some report growing cacti under florescent lamps successfully.
    That would seem to be ideal for an apartment situation, as the heat and
    electrical consumption are low. Also cacti prefer dryer to bone
    dry soil most of the time, so water making humidity/moisture will be
    less of a problem.
     
  16. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    I would prefer a metal halide lamp but that could bring me into
    problems. Or I have to buy a metal halide designed for use in large
    fishtanks. (deeper than 18 inch, for growth of waterplants or corals))
    These are made for indoor use, but they are far more expensive than
    those designed for additional lighting in greenhouses. Besides that
    they come with compact metal halide bulbs with a shorter lifespan.
    These bulbs are also more expensive.

    TL5 fluorescents seem the best in my opinion. (also often used for
    fishtanks) The are only 16mm thick (40% less surface than the usual T8
    fluorescents which are 26mm thick) In the high output version
    they have 54 Watt for a 4 feet long bulb. The lumen output is above
    4.000 lumen. Together with their smaller surface they produce a more
    intense light than T8 bulbs. They are available in daylight colour
    (6.500 Kelvin) and produce a very good lightspectrum. After 10.000
    hours of use they still produce 90% of the lumen output of a new bulb.
    With fluorescent it is also easier to light the cacti not only from
    above but also from the sides. For use in fishtanks one can also get
    high quality reflectors.
     
  17. BrugmansiaBrujo

    BrugmansiaBrujo Titanium Member

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    One definitely has to weigh the benefits and distractors of the different types of lighting.



    Cost of fixtures and bulbs, electricity consumption costs, heat production, side lighting ability, etc.



    I think one should also look in to ventilation, regardless of the types
    of lights being used. Good ventilation is necessary to keep down
    humidity damage to the place, and to help with the regulation of pests
    of all sorts ( bacteria, molds, fungi, insects) that could benefit from
    still/stale air. The better ventilation solutions would involve
    some kind of exhaust to the outside of the building.



    Also ventilation allows for a more constant supply of CO2 to the
    plants, which they need. If closed in and un-ventilated, they
    will expend most all of the CO2 and make oxygen as part of their
    photosynthesis. Some people like to have a bottle/tank of CO2
    with some kind of regulator to allow a slow addition of CO2 to the
    growing area. But that may be undeeded expense and complication
    if simple ventilation, preferably gently forced ventilation, is
    incorporated into the grow area.


    Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo
     
  18. Cyano

    Cyano Newbie

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    My plan is to let the heat of the lamps take care of the ventilation.
    The lamps heat up the air, warm air rises and sucks in fresh air from
    the bottom of the growing chamber. Since cacti grow slow and consume
    little water, as you mentioned earlier, I hope that the airflow
    generated by the warm lights is enough to supply the cacti with enough
    CO2. For Marihuana growing this wouldn´t be enough (1 square meter
    consumes 4-7 liters of water a day) and one has to blow it out of the
    room. With cacti I hope that this is not necessary. In the winter the
    heating makes the air dry and in summer I leave a window open. Fans
    make noise and can lead to complains of the neighbours. In the
    marihuana growshops here one can buy silenced ventilators but they are
    quite expensive.

    Adding CO2 from a bottle/tank is also not so easy. CO2 is heavier than
    air and sinks to the ground, where it is of no use to the plants. One
    has to constantly blow it up from the ground. You need large
    oscillating fans to do this. To not lose the CO2 and maintain high CO2
    levels, the growing chamber must be airtight. This raises the humidity.
    Constant ventilation would blow out the CO2, the bottle would be empty
    quick and the CO2 level would not reach 1.500 ppm (adviced for MJ
    growing). When using CO2, one has to blow the air out of the building
    in order to prevent accumulation of CO2 in the room. Otherwise it gets
    dangerous. CO2 can displace all the oxygen in the room, causing
    asphyxiation/death from lack of oxygen.

    One could also raise CO2 levels in the room through fermentation.
    (making wine) This would not be so effective (and dangerous) as using
    CO2 from a tank, but is better than nothing. But I also grow mushrooms
    and am afraid of an extra contamination risk from yeast bacteria in the
    air. But if my idea of the growing chamber doesn´t work I do have to
    make some adjustments.
     
  19. jaguarangel

    jaguarangel Newbie

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    Peyote is an endangered species. It would be wonderful if people grew more of it. Trichocereus would also be good to grow. Peyote takes 10 years until maturity. 5 years for trichs. Why not grow both?