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Health - turning tar into powder

Discussion in 'Heroin' started by RhinestoneCowboy, Aug 18, 2009.

  1. RhinestoneCowboy

    RhinestoneCowboy Titanium Member

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    According to my friend, last night he was smoking a chunk of black. He has done this method for quite some time, and has always noticed that after he takes a few good tokes from his piece, it will cool down and turn into a very hard, brittle little chunk on the foil. He decided to experiment with it last night, and plucked it from the foil and dropped it onto a mirror, where he subsequently crushed it and chopped it up into a fine, dark brown/black crystalline powder. even after playing with it for a bit, he couldn't get it back to its original, goopy form. It didn't have its typical mega strong acetic odor to it. This is logical, because as he smokes his normal pieces of H, when he first starts out, the acetic vapor is very harsh, but as the piece is progressively toked, the acetic fades as it's being boiled from the foil.

    Now, to get to the punch:

    Though this is a very crude example of removing some of the leftover acetic acid from tar, this proves that removing it will aid in turning it into a powder. Swim's point of this, is that acetic acid and its high concentrations in tar are very harmful to the users' veins, bronchial tube/lungs, and the user's body in general! This is the main downside to using tar! So after swim's little experiment last night, this led him to pondering a less crude method to removing a majority of the acetic acid from tar, for the benefit of all users' bodies. The average IV user loses all of his/her usable veins in only a couple months of everyday use. I know a guy that moved from the east coast, where he only did white powder. He has used heroin for 15 years, and until several months ago, when he moved to the west coast, he has all the veins in his arms in tact. Now his only administration options are his neck and his femoral, due to the high acidic content of tar.

    If we can discover an easy quick way to rid of most of this acid, the health of many can be preserved!

    Just a thought. Be safe, everyone.:)

    ~RC
     
  2. Helene

    Helene Gold Member

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    Hmm...sounds good in theory.

    I know many swimmers (herself included) who have still got usable veins in their arms after years of daily use. Swim thinks that if one is careful, uses clean (smallest gauge possible) works, looks after their veins, rotates sites etc there's no reason for them to wreck their veins in such a short amount of time at all.

    EDIT- Okay, swim now understands the issue - the comment was meant in the context of black tar use, swim kinda misunderstood that. She just wanted to make it clear that if you're careful, use sterile kit, good filters, have good injecting practice etc, it really does improve your chances of keeping your veins in good condition. And this shouldn't be overlooked, whatever type of heroin is being used. In fact, it's even more important to keep your IV standards up when using such a vein-damaging type of heroin as tar. Hope that clarifies things a bit.

    H
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2009
  3. RhinestoneCowboy

    RhinestoneCowboy Titanium Member

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    it's largely incorrect if taken out of context, like You did.

    it's largely correct when returned into the context of TAR use. tar is loaded with acetic acid, which when in contact with the veins of the user, dramatically speeds up the loss of veins. the average everyday tar user uses several grams/day. no matter how much the user rotates arms or anything, there is still a ton of acetic acid entering the veins and damaging them. all west coast tar users end up using their femoral sooner or later.
     
  4. OI39

    OI39 Newbie

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    I lived on the East Coast and used to wonder how people could lose their veins so quickly. That was until I only had tar.

    In 6 years all, and I mean ALL the veins I could possibly tap are dead. Femorals, Jugulars, and most recently both my subclavians went. It's easy to say it's because people are lazy and don't rotate, but believe me tar'll take the veins of the most diligent among us in no time flat.

    I've tried neutralising the acidity in tar to make the imact less on the veins, but there was always issues with precipitates forming and large amounts of sticky goop coating the cotton. Usually it prevented its being drawn into the rig through the cotton. I think it may've reduced the potency as well.

    There's so many different alkaloids that're active in tar, which is what makes it superior to E.Coast powder IMO, and I lived in Philly! I personally would love to hear a way to make tar more friendly on the tubes, while keeping its potency unharmed. Even if it took a moderate amount of kitchen chem I'd do it.
     
  5. cra$h

    cra$h Palladium Member

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    Converting tar into powder would be way too much effort to use on a daily basis, unless I had literally ounces of H he could convert.

    Background- The difference between tar and powder (we'll use h4) is how it's produced. From my understanding, in mexico where just about all of the tar comes from they take the opium and crudely convert it to morphine. This morphine still has a lot of plant fats and other materials in it, which results in a goopy consistancy. Then they acetify it, creating not diecetylmorphine, but 6MAM. This isn't exactly heroin, but it's pretty damn close. Most users can't tell the difference. They're just about equal in potency and which is better is really a matter of personal opinion. Now jumping to the other side of the world, countries like Afghanistan actually use a lot of their opium for legitamit morphine production. This means that they create a pure powder that's medical grade. Then using acetic anhydride (wow I butchered that word! Correction please?) they create heroin. Diacetylmorphine kinda heroin. I would love to know why there's different kinds of this shit, like the tanish h3(?) and the white h4.

    To convert tar to powder you would need to remove all that gunk, and acetify using acetic anhydride, nothing else. That's a whole lot of chemestry, probably defatting, and possibly some other techniques used to extract the morphine from opium. Then again, what tar is isn't morphine, or even diecetylmorphine, so conversion would be tough. But what if one would acetify using both acetic acid, and acetic anhydride? Would this change both 3 and 6 hydroxy positions to create a super heroin? Or am I just a dumbass who doesn't know much about chemestry?
     
  6. Helene

    Helene Gold Member

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    Cra$h, Might be an idea to copy the above post into the opiate chem forum, the swimmers there would almost undoubtedly be able to provide you with some answers. They're all very good at things like that over there...

    H
     
  7. rbegoniaz

    rbegoniaz Silver Member

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    Swir can tell You that what cra$h says fits with what happened when Swir tried purifying her Tar.Swir had done this many times before,so instead of doing this gram by gram Swir got a quarter/oz.Right from the start she had problems with no reactions etc.Apparently it's that 6MAN jazz.Who knew,anyway Swir lost 7gs.This is to all who have NO idea exactly what Tar does to veins,and would rather go on the assumption that Swius do not take care of the veins.Not only veins but it leaves black track marks,discolors the injection sites just nasty shit.Swir,even when she was a training to be a junkie, was diligent in her vein health and maintenance,and did not reap the rewards of this at all.So please start rethinking this judgement of the misunderstood Tar Babies of this planet.:cool:
     
  8. RhinestoneCowboy

    RhinestoneCowboy Titanium Member

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    I don't think it even requires the intense lab work of reconverting the tar into H4... just simply removing some of the acetic acid from the mix would help out greatly! swim stumbled upon a crude version of this by smoking it, and realizing that after several tokes of a large piece of tar, it was no longer goopy, but rather, very hard, and after removed from the foil, could be crushed into a fine powder that lacked a majority of the acetic acid smell. swim also notices that the burn down his throat decreases as he continues to toke off of a piece. this is due to the acetic acid vaporizing from the tar.

    swims idea is to get a large amount of tar, and spread it out thin over a pyrex baking dish, and put it in the oven at a rather LOW temp (as to not destroy any or much of the precious alkaloids) for a while to see if some of the acetic acid can be boiled or vaporized from the tar.

    after swim's tin foil experiment, he crushed the piece into a fine, BLACK POWDER. I am convinced that a simple process can remove a good amount of the acetic acid in tar, thus benefiting users of the west coast!!
     
  9. east_of_eden

    east_of_eden Titanium Member

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    swim knows nothing about chemistry but being on the west coast aswell is very interested in this, however wouldn't this dilute the strength of the heroin signifigantly?

    when someone smokes tar, what's left (the crunchy, black layer on the foil) is the remains with the heroin taken out of it, isn't it?

    this is to say, the part that's left will not get you high, so even if someone were to spread it out in a thin layer and try to burn off some of the acetic acid, wouldn't it also be weakening the dope?

    just curious, I would love to know the answer to this.
     
  10. OI39

    OI39 Newbie

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    SWIM's been following the idea of acetifying morphine using acetic acid (glacial) to maximize output of 6MAM, but from what I read, heat won't work as a catalyst. I did find what some said would work, but Samurai Gecko seems bent on keeping it secret, so I won't betray him.

    The problem's also that you don't know what you're purifying w/tar. There's diacetylmorphine, unreacted morphine, 6MAM, 3MAM, as well as all god knows what else. Not to mention residue from the ass it may've been smuggled in!

    Yeah I guess it'd be easier to take a trip back to Philly, buy a piece of uncut and get it back here. Then hope the local satelite post of La Eme doesn't find out and smoke you for it.

    But like was said earlier, neutralizing the acidity's easy, it's that even taking it up one increment in pH made it no longer fully soluble and almost impossible to draw in the rig. Papers were used, not a pH meter, so maybe trying it in minute changes at a time w/ more sensitive equipment would help?
     
  11. cra$h

    cra$h Palladium Member

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    I was thinkin the same thing. By cooking the tar, aren't you cookin off the dope? One could possibly neutralize the acid by using a base, but why would you want to add another unesissary chemical? Samurai G should be here. That guy is like the opiate guru and would shurley clear everything up
     
  12. g666d

    g666d Silver Member

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    @crash,
    acetic anhydride =
    ethanoic anhydride
    Ethanoyl ethanoate
    Acetic acid anhydride
    Acetyl acetate
    Acetyl oxide
    Acetic oxide

    according to wikipedia, also heard it called Anhydrogenous Acetate (i think) and Ac2O

    ... you did good with your first one!

    6mam, from what i understand, sounds easier to produce and apparently 3x potent as diacetylmorphine (or diamorphine, or 3,6diacetylmorphine ). Is important not to acetylate codeine at same time though.

    @op, can understand you wanting to remove the acid, and there is a tek called "purifying street heroin", but i don't know if it applies to tar. Is an acid/base extraction, i think. Like someone else said, heroin base is not soluble, have to turn it into HCL or sulphate or something. Not sure about 6mam. Would assume the same. Quite possibly can dilute and precipitate the salt, but really this is above my head, and everything else i have stated i pretty much learned on web, so, yeah. Just ideas.

    @oi39, swim read somewhere that someone acetylated codeine as well as the morph when making 6mam, the 6mac put them in hospital, apparently. Can understand people being quiet on this one. There is also story of guy who made fentanyl analogue that gave all his customers permanent parkinsons disease... chemistry can be dangerous if you don't know what is going on. You need to be able to do a melting point test of product at least, I think. Or test on a dog.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  13. east_of_eden

    east_of_eden Titanium Member

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    off subject, but I am wondering why this isn't more common? I think there would certainly be a market for H4 powder on the west coast, but in her 15 years of shooting tar, she's only come across someone with east coast heroin once. that seems strange.

    also, I was wondering if the purifying heroin thread works on tar? anyone know? she has a friend who says he's done it several times but she doesn't know if he really has or not.
     
  14. RhinestoneCowboy

    RhinestoneCowboy Titanium Member

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    I think it may be as simple as breaking down a larger quantity in water (to facilitate in spreading it thin to maximize surface area to promote evaporation) and putting it in the oven on a lower temperature in a large, flat pyrex dish. the water would evap and then, by theory, the acetic acid would evap next. being careful not to burn the product and destroy it, a low heat is obviously desired. this, in theory would result in a dried out form of tar, in which the acetic acid has mostly been removed, and it would be difficult to repack into tar. this product would benefit many users' health. swim understands the idea of purifying using the tek available here, but feels that it wouldn't work on tar, considering the multiple different types of opioids in the product. swim's idea isn't about purification, but rather, simply evaporation of the large amount of acetic in the product. perhaps I should bring this up in the chem section.
     
  15. east_of_eden

    east_of_eden Titanium Member

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    that sounds like a very interesting idea swirhinestonecowboy. have You tried it yet?

    if the acetic acid would evaporate without burning off some of the heroin, that sounds like that would at least be a good start.
     
  16. DLC3R

    DLC3R Newbie

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    I tried the basic extraction method (freebase to extract alkaloids into solvent, then extracting with dilute HCL back to a water soluble solution, got back a water soluble powder but it had no potency). In other words, it didn't work.

    The best solution I have come up with is just a low-tech method of reducing the harmful effects. First, I used syringe wheel filters (hydrophilic polypropylene, available online), which remove much of the vegetable matter, including a lot (but not all) of the sticky goop, without reducing potency at all. These filters will at least remove everything larger than 0.2 microns, which includes all bacteria, fungus, parasites, dirt and other impurities, down to and including anything the size of a virus. I've heard of tar containing flesh-eating bacteria, so this is at least a good safety precaution.

    The second thing I do, as with all acidic solutions being injected, is to fill the syringe as full of blood as it will get before pushing it in. Think about what is happening when you inject -- you are pushing an acidic solution through the end of the needle right up against the wall of the vein. It's unlikely you can keep the needle in the center of the vein as you push it in, and it is blasting the acidic liquid right into the wall of the vein. Do this enough times in the same spot, and the acid eats away the tissue on the inside of the vein. Veins are smart enough to realize that if there is just one spot in the vein that is weakened, the whole vein will collapse to avoid a rupture. Diluting the solution with as much blood as possible, and then pushing it in as slowly as possible, will significantly reduce the damage to the vein wall. Proof this has some effect is that I have been injecting this garbage for years without loss of a single vein. Also, using a new (sharp) rig EVERY time, and cleaning the injection site thoroughly with alcohol, will make a big difference.

    Most people don't realize that using cotton to filter pulls up microscopic cotton fibers, and over the years, these clog the microscopic vessels in the lungs, which can eventually lead to pulmonary edema. This type of damage takes years to become a problem, so it is universally ignored. Wheel filters eliminate this problem as well. Filter first with cotton, then with wheel filter. Granted, they are expensive, between 1 and 2 dollars each, but you can filter a gram or so with one filter. One time in 20, the tar is so filled with crap (vegetable matter) that it will clog the wheel filter. If this happens, filter with cotton several times and try again.

    I may be wrong but I think the only way to properly convert tar to powder is by starting at the very beginning as though converting raw opium, extracting morphine and converting to diamorphine (boiling in lime, acetic anhydride, using exact ratios, temperatures, cook times, etc., a complicated procedure requiring advanced lab techniques unavailable to the kitchen chemist). That's why the mexicans came up with the shortcut to produce this goop in the first place, so they could avoid the complex chemistry.

    DLC3R added 92 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...

    I tried the basic extraction method (freebase to extract alkaloids into solvent, then extracting with dilute HCL back to a water soluble solution, got back a water soluble powder but it had no potency). In other words, it didn't work.

    The best solution I have come up with is just a low-tech method of reducing the harmful effects. First, I used syringe wheel filters (hydrophilic polypropylene, available online), which remove much of the vegetable matter, including a lot (but not all) of the sticky goop, without reducing potency at all. These filters will at least remove all bacteria, fungus, parasites, dirt and other impurities, down to and including anything the size of a virus. I've heard of tar containing flesh-eating bacteria, so this is at least a good safety precaution.

    The second thing I do, as with all acidic solutions being injected, is to fill the syringe as full of blood as it will get before pushing it in. Think about what is happening when you inject -- you are pushing an acidic solution through the end of the needle right up against the wall of the vein. It's unlikely you can keep the needle in the center of the vein as you push it in, and it is blasting the acidic liquid right into the wall of the vein. Do this enough times in the same spot, and the acid eats away the tissue on the inside of the vein. Veins are smart enough to realize that if there is just one spot in the vein that is weakened, the whole vein will collapse to avoid a rupture. Diluting the solution with as much blood as possible, and then pushing it in as slowly as possible, will significantly reduce the damage to the vein wall. Proof this has some effect is that I have been injecting this garbage for years without loss of a single vein. Also, using a new (sharp) rig EVERY time, and cleaning the injection site thoroughly with alcohol, will make a big difference.

    Most people don't realize that using cotton to filter pulls up microscopic cotton fibers, and over the years, these clog the microscopic vessels in the lungs, which can eventually lead to pulmonary edema. This type of damage takes years to become a problem, so it is universally ignored. Wheel filters eliminate this problem as well. Filter first with cotton, then with wheel filter. Granted, they are expensive, between 1 and 2 dollars each, but you can filter a gram or so with one filter. One time in 20, the tar is so filled with crap (vegetable matter) that it will clog the wheel filter. If this happens, filter with cotton several times and try again.

    I may be wrong but I think the only way to properly convert tar to powder is by starting at the very beginning as though converting raw opium, extracting morphine and converting to diamorphine (boiling in lime, acetic anhydride, using exact ratios, temperatures, cook times, etc., a complicated procedure requiring advanced lab techniques unavailable to the kitchen chemist). That's why the mexicans came up with the shortcut to produce this goop in the first place, so they could avoid the complex chemistry.

    The idea of reducing the acid level, as was mentioned earlier, would also be impossible, since it is the acid molecules attached to each alkaloid molecule that makes them water soluble. If you try to raise the pH, it will knock the acid molecules off and the drug becomes non-water soluble, so there really isn't any way to partially or slightly de-acidify the solution in a way that would be useful.

    There is a method for separating alkaloids from certain kinds of plant matter, by reducing the pH of the solution very low, to perhaps 3, then adding the right kind of solvent. The plant matter will have more affinity for the solvent than the water while the drug alkaloids will be completely water soluble with no affinity for the solvent, and when the layers separate, the plant matter (brown goop) will stay in the solvent layer and can be removed. I've only seen this work with chlorophyl based plant matter but it's the only other simple method I can think of, and perhaps I will give it a try.

    DLC3R added 4 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

    The idea of reducing the acid level, as was mentioned earlier, would also be impossible, since it is the acid molecules attached to each alkaloid molecule that makes them water soluble. If you try to raise the pH, it will knock the acid molecules off and the drug becomes non-water soluble, so there really isn't any way to partially or slightly de-acidify the solution in a way that would be useful.

    There is a method for separating alkaloids from certain kinds of plant matter, by reducing the pH of the solution very low, to perhaps 3, then adding the right kind of solvent. The plant matter will have more affinity for the solvent than the water while the drug alkaloids will be completely water soluble with no affinity for the solvent, and when the layers separate, the plant matter (brown goop) will stay in the solvent layer and can be removed. I've only seen this work with chlorophyl based plant matter but it's the only other simple method I can think of, and perhaps I will give it a try.

    DLC3R added 2 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

    I tried the basic extraction method (freebase to extract alkaloids into solvent, then extracting with dilute HCL back to a water soluble solution, got back a water soluble powder but it had no potency). In other words, it didn't work.

    The best solution I have come up with is just a low-tech method of reducing the harmful effects. First, I used syringe wheel filters (hydrophilic polypropylene, available online), which remove much of the vegetable matter, including a lot (but not all) of the sticky goop, without reducing potency at all. These filters will at least remove everything larger than 0.2 microns, which includes all bacteria, fungus, parasites, dirt and other impurities, down to and including anything the size of a virus. I've heard of tar containing flesh-eating bacteria, so this is at least a good safety precaution.

    The second thing I do, as with all acidic solutions being injected, is to fill the syringe as full of blood as it will get before pushing it in. Think about what is happening when you inject -- you are pushing an acidic solution through the end of the needle right up against the wall of the vein. It's unlikely you can keep the needle in the center of the vein as you push it in, and it is blasting the acidic liquid right into the wall of the vein. Do this enough times in the same spot, and the acid eats away the tissue on the inside of the vein. Veins are smart enough to realize that if there is just one spot in the vein that is weakened, the whole vein will collapse to avoid a rupture. Diluting the solution with as much blood as possible, and then pushing it in as slowly as possible, will significantly reduce the damage to the vein wall. Proof this has some effect is that I have been injecting this garbage for years without loss of a single vein. Also, using a new (sharp) rig EVERY time, and cleaning the injection site thoroughly with alcohol, will make a big difference.

    Most people don't realize that using cotton to filter pulls up microscopic cotton fibers, and over the years, these clog the microscopic vessels in the lungs, which can eventually lead to pulmonary edema. This type of damage takes years to become a problem, so it is universally ignored. Wheel filters eliminate this problem as well. Filter first with cotton, then with wheel filter. Granted, they are expensive, between 1 and 2 dollars each, but you can filter a gram or so with one filter. One time in 20, the tar is so filled with crap (vegetable matter) that it will clog the wheel filter. If this happens, filter with cotton several times and try again.

    I may be wrong but I think the only way to properly convert tar to powder is by starting at the very beginning as though converting raw opium, extracting morphine and converting to diamorphine (boiling in lime, acetic anhydride, using exact ratios, temperatures, cook times, etc., a complicated procedure requiring advanced lab techniques unavailable to the kitchen chemist). That's why the mexicans came up with the shortcut to produce this goop in the first place, so they could avoid the complex chemistry.

    DLC3R added 92 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...


    The idea of reducing the acid level, as was mentioned earlier, would also be impossible, since it is the acid molecules attached to each alkaloid molecule that makes them water soluble. If you try to raise the pH, it will knock the acid molecules off and the drug becomes non-water soluble, so there really isn't any way to partially or slightly de-acidify the solution in a way that would be useful.

    There is a method for separating alkaloids from certain kinds of plant matter, by reducing the pH of the solution very low, to perhaps 3, then adding the right kind of solvent. The plant matter will have more affinity for the solvent than the water while the drug alkaloids will be completely water soluble with no affinity for the solvent, and when the layers separate, the plant matter (brown goop) will stay in the solvent layer and can be removed. I've only seen this work with chlorophyl based plant matter but it's the only other simple method I can think of, and perhaps I will give it a try.

    DLC3R added 5 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

    I tried to add to the last post and it repeated the whole thing, I don't get it, why can't I properly edit my own post? I guess I don't have enough brownie points.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  17. kailey_elise

    kailey_elise Gold Member

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    My best friend lost her best vein (the big one on her left arm, as she's right-handed) on a 5 day visit to Seattle, Washington, USA, shooting black tar heroin while there. At home in New England, USA, she'd successfully injected (white/beige powder) heroin, cocaine & even occasional hydromorphone pills with barely so much as a track mark.

    Black tar heroin is REALLY hard on the veins.

    ~Kailey
     
  18. TarBaby

    TarBaby Newbie

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  19. Dicemanstyle

    Dicemanstyle Titanium Member

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    Brilliant Article mate, swim really enjoyed reading that.

    Swim also wishes that White Heroin #4 was available in the UK although it would probably end up being cut to fuck but still. I do not want to quit until he has managed to get his paws on some of this gear.

    Maybe one day when I am flush he might attempt at converting brown heroin #3 commonly found in the UK into some nice china white baby!!!!!

    Still thanks for that excellent article. Thats going into swims favourites.
     
  20. perfectday

    perfectday Mercury Member

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    Eating salt and vinegar chips gives me the chills, if i don't have gear supply haha, i noticed this the other day.