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Using opiates near the end of withdrawals

Discussion in 'Opiate addiction' started by Drummer16, Mar 13, 2011.

  1. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    I have been scouring the net for the past year and hasn't ever found a definitive answer or even question about this topic. Basically, the question is: if I has gone 5 days without his DOC and is still feeling slight withdrawal symptoms, if he uses ONE dose, will he have to start all over or will he be somewhere near where he was in the withdrawal stage before he took that dose? Thanks.

    Drummer16 added 50 Minutes and 34 Seconds later...

    Let swim clarify that the DOC here was oxymorphone, which had a nice intense 3 day phase of FUN! I was using upwards of 50mg in a 5 hour period up his nose, and that kind of dosage is equivalent to god only knows what in morphine terms...up to 500mg morphine equivalent? Luckily, he knew he was running low and tapered down to about 20mg a day, but still that last jump was a bitch. Even the taper was a bitch. I haven't slept well in 2 weeks! Please, I has to know if getting one fix will ruin all the hard work he's done. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  2. hillbilly345

    hillbilly345 Silver Member

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    Yes, it will take you back to where you started. You have made it this far, you cant just ive up. Its a Bitch but it will only get harder if you give in now. You can do it! Dont give up now!
     
  3. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    Swim really really appreciates the positive motivation. He really really does. He just has had such a rough time that when he gets his 90 oxymorphones if he uses 1 to actually have one good high then gives them to his gf to hold for a week, will it really be that way? I know You is expecting him to relapse, but swim swears he will be a good good boy this time at least until his tolerance is down. Then, once every 4 days dispensed properly by his gf. It seems hard to believe with his body taking so long to adjust to life without pain medication that it would be so quick to completely reverse all of that.

    I am remembering to when he kicked his heroin habit for a month and how life was so much more meaningful...he just wants to have his cake and eat it too, you know? Seems impossible in this business.
     
  4. TheBigBadWolf

    TheBigBadWolf Apprentice Sorcerer Palladium Member Donating Member

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    AW: Re: Using opiates near the end of withdrawals

    Dude,
    this game so much of us have played and lost.:thumbsdown: If one is miserable enough he will go any way viable to get his DOC. And our beloved ones will not let us stay in agony, no matter what we and they have sworn to do before.

    I would strongly advise you against taking any opiates again, not only whilst in withdrawal but also for the f***ing rest of your life.
    Any relapse in this time will lead you in full withdrawal again.
    You have made it so far, please do abstain furtheron to not have to begin from the start.

    Good thoughts and powerful will

    TBBW
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  5. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    Agreed, that is the best solution for swim. I don't know if he's ready to stop using them altogether. He has noticed the magic waning. But, now that he's moved up the ladder to oxymorphone, no other opiate will even come close to giving him euphoria. So, it may be nearing the end of his opiate days after all.

    Swim really want to get some quantifiable answers to my question, though, because at some point there has to be a point where your body has returned somewhat to normal. Swim looking for something like...

    during withdrawals:


    • after 3 days of no opiates, a dose will send you back to day one with roughly 75% strength withdrawals
    • after 5 days, a dose will send you back to day one with roughly 50% withdrawals
    • after 7 days a half dose bringing you an equal high will send you back to day one 25% strength withdrawals
    Something like that. I do know that if he goes a week without opiates, a small dose will work initially, with each successive day having to double the dose until where he was at before. And, 3 days of that will bring swim right back to withdrawal day 1 100%.

    Thanks guys, swim knows you're offering the best advice ever. I have honestly been clean for 2 months at a time a few times over the past 3 years and remembers what it was like. Five years ago I used to use opiates only on Saturday mornings. Eventually, he developed bowel problems and back pain, which from then on the devil had him by his poisonous, pleasure giving claws. I amn't letting his life or others' suffer from his addiction whatsoever. He makes a lot of money at work, has a big house, and a beautiful gf. But, I am also nearing the age of marriage and children so he is trying to squeeze the last bit of joy out of life before being imprisoned....hah
     
  6. Dickon

    Dickon Newbie

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    There is no answer of the kind you are looking for. Things vary hugely between people and even the same person will experience things very differently at different times.

    I've been around this block an awfully long time, and seen an awful lot of people try the kind of thing you are doing. I've yet to meet one who has been able to go from having a habit to using once every four days. Addiction is not simply about some objectively measurable "physical withdrawals". Withdrawal symptoms are hugely tied in with state of mind.

    It's essentially a case of "Do you want to fuck about, or do you want to quit?" Even if you want to fuck about, you should allow yourselves several months of abstinence. Starting back only 5 days off is a recipe for disaster.

    As for not letting anyone suffer because of your addiction I would say

    a) you almost certainly are doing so now even if you don't realise it. Ask yourself, are you always honest and up-front with everyone? Do you really think an addict is fully emotionally available? Even if people don't know what exactly is going on, anyone with a modicum of intuition will sense immediately that something is "off" about you.

    b) Things change. Carry on down the road of addiction and the material side of things will most likely start to slip too. Addiction is no respecter of wives and children. Marriage and kids are no guarantee you will stop.

    If you can, I'd urge you in no uncertain terms to stop now. Opiate addiction is nastier than you may think, in my view, despite what certain members on here who seem to think otherwise may say.

    If and when you are ready to stop fucking about, I will be happy to help in any way I can. Until then, you probably need to do some experimenting and learn the hard way. I certainly did, and I am far from unique in that way.

    Be well

    Dickon
     
  7. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    Thanks for the reply. I understand where you are coming from. The thing about I am that he never has hit this rock bottom where I am sure you have reached. He always either runs out of his supply, or the cost/pleasure ratio becomes too high where he has to take a step back. I have never had a constant supply to where he can go months and months and months on end. That's why I've said in other posts that he's experienced wds almost 20 times, maybe more since the time he's been using. I don't even want to call it using because most of the stuff is prescribed to him, he just abuses it. Like you said, everyone is different. I just wanted to know the usual case for what 90% of people experience when they are near their end of wds and what the effect would be. It sounds like you've had many years of experience with this and I am sure you are a good candidate to share what you have experienced with respect to the topic. He has honestly never had a chance to experiment with this, but maybe, I will be able to post back in a few days and share what happened with him.

    The worst effect I has is that he becomes emotionally unavailable between the times when he is using his oxymorphone. Financially, the last year everything has been basically covered by insurance 100%. It might even help swim to use opiates vs alcohol like he used to. Alcohol was really taking it's toll on his body almost to the point where he could not handle even a few drinks without getting sick/hungover. I don't want to try to rationalize his addiction too much because that is just plain silliness.

    He is not ready to quit just yet, but just wants to exhibit a little more self control than the last few binges.
     
  8. professor1165

    professor1165 Silver Member

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    Im not going to preach to you about relapse and recovery...its pointless and belittling. To address your "controled use" experiment, this has been afoaf's experience; daily opiate use for 5 yrs, physically addicted for 4 yrs; IV user for 1 yr. Kicked it & Clean for over a year, then started using small amounts (sniffing 1-2 bags/day) again. He was able to beat it but it was just as hard as his previous 3 bundle/day IV habit. Physically it was cake but mentally it was the same nightmare. I dont have a medical reference to post about this but i was part of a naltrexone trial study 3 yrs ago. The docs there said it takes approx 5 yrs for brain chemistry (term used loosely) to return to normal after habitual opiate use. Using even a small amount before during that period can trigger the same craving as if you were jonesin' for your next fix. Also IMO & experience synthetic opioids are by far more difficult to withdraw from and keep clean. I empathize with your dilema I truly do, but You is at the point of no return. 'You cant turn a pickle back into a cucumber'. If You could use they way he suggests we wouldnt be discussing this right now. If swmy truly want off the merry-go-round ask your doc about vivitol. it saved my life. There are no other options right now. You needs several years of abstinence from opioids before even contemplating this scenario
     
  9. caltrain208

    caltrain208 Titanium Member

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    I sure hope you never have to hit the "rock bottom" most of us have had to go to in order to take steps to get clean. When I posted on this website asking for advice and help, I was not yet at my bottom. I wanted to die each and every day, my life absolutely run by self-centered fear, yet I had not yet tried enough measures to control my use to admit to my innermost self that I was an addict and I needed to get clean. No one will be able to convince you to get clean now, to save yourself the absolute hell that is addiction, in fact I'm not going to even try. I'm just going to tell you that when you have had enough pain, when you have given up, when death looks like the only way out, when all you have been completely deflated, there is a solution. You do not have to end your life or spend the rest of your days suffering and hopeless. Many addicts, including myself, have found relief through the 12 steps. I know you may scoff at the idea at this point in your life, but when it starts to sound like a good idea, you'll be ready. You'll know when you're there. Best of luck to you my friend- I sincerely hope you don't have to go though the same pain I did to get this thing. It is also my hope that this disease does not kill you before you have a chance to experience the miracle of recovery. Take care.
     
  10. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    Jeez, you guys must have been on a whole different level than swim. When I use opiates, he wants to go out, he wants to work, he wants to exercise, and he is generally more productive than when he is off them. The picture you all are painting is all day laying in bed with a needle in your arm.

    What professor said is very true. I find it that with each successive withdrawal he goes through, the harder and harder part is the mental part. The cravings are nuts, mainly because life doesn't have the same sugar coating it normally does. The physical stuff doesn't even both swim. Constant stomach cramping? solved by immodium all day. Achy muscles? solved by high doses of ibprofen. Inability to sleep? pop a seroquil or kpin. Anxiety? cured by kpins but can't use them constantly. Generally it's just the anxiety, depression, lack of interest, and cravings that bug swim.

    Ok guys, back to the topic. Swim just took a dose (after 6 days of abstinence) and will report back tomorrow on the state of the strength of wds, if any. I am having a good time, but his tolerance did not go down much AT ALL after 6 days.
     
  11. kailey_elise

    kailey_elise Gold Member

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    That's right...keep telling yourself that you're "different", that you're "special", that you're "not like the rest of us".

    I'm trying ever-so-hard to say this, um, politely...

    If you can't see the level of denial you're in, the futility of your justifications/rationalisations...if you honestly think having a girlfriend/family/house/job will stop you, or that all you'll ever take is your prescribed opioids, or that having your girlfriend dole out a dose to you every 4 days like you're a 3 year old will work (because trust me, it won't - esp that last point...she's gonna get fed up & throw you your 'script & tell you to handle it yourself & leave her alone, nor is it at all fair for you to put the responsibility for your drug mis/ab/use in her hands & make her part of your sickness); then you're already fucked FAAAR more than you realize.

    But hey, what do I know, right?

    ~Kailey
     
  12. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    You guys always say that everyone's body is different and how opiates affect each individual is unique, but you sit here and try to pigeonhole everyone into a very specific category. You all are basically saying that the field of pain management is a complete sham, and it can never be successful for any individual. You are saying that people have no self-control and are complete animals when exposed to these chemicals, completely losing all rational thought. Look at it this way, swim enjoys an occasional cigarette at social occasions, a highly addictive chemical. He has maybe a few a week, but he never has gone out and bought a pack of them. While I agree with some of your principles like the best solution is abstinence, I think that some individuals have more self control than others. A friend of a friend of mine got clean and his buddies from out of town came in one night and he decided to use with them. That one dose sent him into a 6 month binge where he lost his job, had no money, and eventually ended up in rehab. I have a good buddy of his that if he has a few drinks of alcohol he will go on huge binges until he almost dies. I have never experienced any kind of craze like that because I has other priorities and some (not always the best) self-control. I mean the root principle of what you guys are saying is correct, so I can't really argue it, nor do I want to. Also, that is true that making his gf responsible is putting an unfair burden on her. Good point.

    Right now, I am coming off of his one dose of his medication. He won't be taking any more of it until this weekend or maybe longer. We'll see who's right I guess. I will post back with how he is doing later.
     
  13. professor1165

    professor1165 Silver Member

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    We all have our own path to walk and lessons to be learned. I say the following without any prejudice toward you or your use; Every single hopelessly addicted junkie shared the exact same thought process you mention above. No one wants to be an addict, its the minimizing & rationalization of their use that allows addiction to sneak in the back door. You want to use but you dont want to be an addict...thats textbook addiction 101. Nothing here is going to get you the answer you want to hear because it would be a lie. You sound exactly like I did 7 yrs ago. Eventually I was all but hopeless. Do what you want bro but if you're looking for some validation you're not gonna find it here cuz we've been where youre at and know where it leads. Theres not loophole for 'special' people. I wish you all the best
     
  14. kailey_elise

    kailey_elise Gold Member

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    No, the field of pain management isn't a sham. Plenty of people seem to be able to take their meds as prescribed, as needed.

    However, from your very own statements, you are not one of them.

    BTW, even managing not to take any more of your medication until the weekend doesn't "prove" anything, to us (who don't really matter) or yourself...if this weekend's dose is near-constantly on your mind. ;)

    I'm not saying this with any malice, just so you know. I got caught in the same trap myself; in fact, having taken my meds as prescribed for years prior to becoming addicted made me justify my addictive use even more. I refused to see the difference between my use for pain and the way it changed when I became addicted.

    I'll say this - when I was merely 'dependent' on opioids, I didn't need anyone else to hold my pills for me so I wouldn't take too many. ;)

    ~Kailey
     
  15. professor1165

    professor1165 Silver Member

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    IDK if its my place to say but i think this thread should be closed. There's no point in beating a dead horse and DRUMMER has a rolodex of excuses and counterpoints. I just dont see this serving any purpose. Leaving it open allows this pointless discussion to go on & on. Its turning into an intervention for christs sake!!
     
  16. Dickon

    Dickon Newbie

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    I'm not going to close this thread. It may be frustrating for those who offer advice to have it, for the most part, ignored, but that is often how things work on here. Maybe drummer, you won't use until the weekend and maybe you'll wait four days after that before you use again. If you can go from using every four days to using every five days then that's great, but I wouldn't be surprised that if you do use every four days for a while you'll congratulate yourself on doing so well and think, well, if I can use every four days I might as well use every three days, and from that every other day, and then no doubt some "special occasion" will come along and you'll use two days in a row, and then using a couple of days in a row won't seem so bad, and you'll be using daily again. Anyway, that's my speculation.

    As far as pain-management goes, if you can go without the pills 3 days out of every 4, then you can do with out them completely. This whole thread does not speak to me of a pain management situation. You have not once talked about how difficult it is to get by without opiates because of pain issues, you have said instead that you want to abuse them. You snort the pills which is not following what your pain management doctor prescribed.

    You can go on about how different every one is, but I think that's missing another very important point, how remarkably similar people are when you get down to it. We might like to emphasise what makes us special, unique, etc. but when it comes to underlying feelings, biology, neurochemistry, we are for the most part all much of a muchness. You go on about your self-control and yet you've ended up addicted. You want to use without being addicted. All this sounds totally normal and not in the least bit different or unusual.

    I'm curious how old you are and for how long you've been using opiates. You say opiates give you energy and make you productive. This seems like fairly days of addiction to me.

    As Kailey says, you sound like you're in denial. You are welcome to believe what you want. Just don't expect others here, especially those who have been down that path, to believe it too. But like I said in my earlier post, this may well be a lesson you have to learn by bitter experience. Maybe having this thread will mean that point is arrived at a little bit quicker. Who knows?

    All the best

    Dickon
     
  17. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    Don't get me wrong, swim appreciates all of your feedback. He just isn't ready to make that jump to sobriety yet. It's funny you mention the 4 days turning to 3 days turning to a binge for a special occasion. I have DEFINITELY experienced that and seen how his brain can play tricks on him. A vacation/being sick is often a good excuse as well.

    I am 27 years old, and started out by popping vicodin that him and his friends would steal from their parents somewhere around the age of 20-21. Then, swim's friends dad had ultram which really got him into opiates because of how long it lasted and the energy it gave him. He was able to procure large amounts of ultram from online pharmacies and of course would use whatever percocets, vicodin, etc he could buy/scrounge up from people around him as well. He used to use the stuff only on the weekends until he went through a hard week in his life where he made an excuse to do it more often. Seeing no harm yet, that continued and continued, finding more excuses and having his brain play tricks on him to get him to take it. Then, he started getting oxy, and that ended quickly because of the price so it was time to go to tar. That went on for a few months. He even grew his own poppies and harvested 3 or 4 hundred pods which gave him lots of fresh opium and tea. Then, he realized something called pain management existed and of course that's where hes been for the past 6 months.

    I have other medical conditions that are alleviated by the opiates. That's one of the main reasons that this class of drugs appeals to him so much. He also began to not be able to tolerate alcohol which left him with nothing to do when everyone was at a bar/party except take some opiates ahead of time.

    Yes, your posts definitely have an impact on swim in the future. Maybe even right now. You kind of bummed him out by putting the class of drugs in such a negative view. He often comes to these boards when he is during withdrawals to get comfort from others having the same problem or reads posts about people getting clean and how great life is.

    I honestly made this post to just try to see if I could get an objective answer to the original question. I didn't really get one, but will get one by watching swim first hand now. It wasn't all for waste and do appreciate your support!

    Drummer16 added 1211 Minutes and 13 Seconds later...

    And there we have it, a 20mg dose sent swim back into withdrawals, but at like 50% symptoms, maybe less...weird. He has major cravings, which are about about 100% they would normally be during wds. He wonders how long these will last?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
  18. CaptainTripps

    CaptainTripps Law & Policy sections Platinum Member & Advisor

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    I guess the advice you received was "objective" after all. At least you came back and posted that your experiment did not work. I give you credit for that. I am on day 7. Starting to feel a lot better, the thought was going through swims mind, maybe a small taste. No need to let things get out of control. But that is what I has said 5 or 6 times in the past. Even with weeks of being clean it only takes a little to want a lot.


    I am glad he logged on and saw this post. Now looking forward to day 8, rather than dreading day 1. Each time it happens quicker and harder. There always seems to be perfectly logical reasons why things got out of hand the "last time". But it seems these reasons keep repeating themselves. It is always helpful to see the rationalizatons of others, especially when they are things one has said to themselves.

    Till the next time.

    Peace
     
  19. musicislife81

    musicislife81 Newbie

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    The Rooster found when wd'ing off of heavy opioids (oxycontin, oxy morphone) that a hydrocodone or 2 would ease his symptoms but not send him back into full-blown wd's after they wore off... HOWEVER... Rooster did find that xanax, weed and hot baths were the best and ONLY valuable solution to wd's. Good Luck... Rooster would not reccomend using opiates after 5 days of wd's... youre almost through the physical symptoms, the mental will be hard, but if you have made it this far... keep going! Rooster has been clean of opioids for almost 90 days now, and being out from under that hell feels FANTASTIC!!!!
     
  20. Drummer16

    Drummer16 Newbie

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    Captain ,that is awesome that this post helped you decide not to have a taste. Congrats. Keep up the good work.

    Unfortunately, swim's brain did the stupid logic like "well, you already fucked it up...might as well keep going." He made it two days without it after the first "relapse" dose, but now probably will have to endure wds all over again. Sucks for him.

    Um, yea using them during wd's has never really worked for me. He has switched to shorter half life opiates to attempt to convert his wd's to something stronger and shorter, and that seemed to work. Hard to tell because everytime is different. Yea, xanax and kpins are the only thing that work for swim. Stimulants absolutely aggravate the symptoms, although I has felt ok taking low dose of adderral plus a high dose of klonopin for days when he needs the energy. Otherwise, it's best to abstain from everything because using benzos for 4 or 5 days just delays the anxiety/depression from hitting you sometimes. It's those two symptoms plus the feeling of boredom and slowed time that kill swim. Everything else can be generally controlled with OTC medications/benzos. Swim will give this another shot soon. Until then, he will have a little fun.