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Treatment - Using other to subside opiate withdrawel - some experiences

Discussion in 'Opiate addiction' started by CPC 93, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. CPC 93

    CPC 93 Newbie

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    Hi, im new to this forum but have browsed it countless times beforehand. I just thought id start out by posting some of My interactions with other drugs to combat withdrawal after a year long battle with heroin, opana, and roxys. Feedback/opinions are very welcome.

    Basically, My average daily dose was 75mg oxycodone a day. I did however go as far as taking 240mg some days, and mainly used opana or heroin when his roxys were not available. Insufflation was the norm with a once and awhile use of IV. Here are some experiences of using certain drugs to treat withdrawal. If someone else has heard or experienced something different please share.

    1.Kratom: After purchasing capsules of this at a local head shop under the name xscape, SWIM immediately loved it. Not only did it act like a mild sedative, it to SWIM's knowledge completely diminished almost all mental side effects from his opiate habit, as well as much of the physical sickly first few days when withdrawing at his worst. Now im not sure if i'm allowed to mention any dosing but the amount one would generally take to alleviate withdrawal from roxys would be in the neighborhood of 3 grams. This is NOT the amount to take in order to get high, that i am not posting here. I believe it was smart of him to order an Ounce of this stuff as the effectiveness of this drug for withdrawal in comparison to others is much better. SWIM suggests searching for a standardized extract such as 25x if one were to purchase it.
    SWIM continued taking this herb along with his other prescription meds (klonopin and adderal) and was very pleased with what he discovered.

    2.ADHD Meds/stimulants- SWIM discovered that when taking his adderal xr once the kratom had kicked in, the 2 flow together almost perfectly. From what I could tell, the kratom was responsible for the elimination of physical withdrawel symptoms and cravings..where as the adderall xr helped subside what seemed to be symptoms of PAWS. This was by far SWIM's favorite combo of drugs when he beat his addiction.
    Aderall xr also works fairly well alone, unless your heavily addicted to the point where your couchbound dead with the "flu". At this point SWIM noticed that no matter how much adderall he took he would fall asleep anyway, even at work.
    All other extended release drugs work very well as well. I have also tried concerta and vyvanse with similar success. One thing not to do however is take instant releases or other stimulats such as cocaine. Instant releases are more prone to causing a crash. Chances are if you are withdrawing bad, you would have to take more of any of these medications then the amount prescribed. Coke seemed particularly dangerous to SWIM because when he quit opiates, SWIM on multiple occasions became depressed. Cocaine would fix this for a good 10 minutes then come crashing down with a depression more horrible than the original. so.. BE CAUTIOUS

    3. Benzos: These were by far My least favorite. Not only did no benzo whether it be xanax, klonopin, valium do anything.. It made everything worse. Benzo use, especially heavy use when you are withdrawing is equivalent to taking them when your actually sick. All that is accomplished is your barred out yet steal feel like shit. People have to remember benzos dont cure depression as not all depression is anxiety related. They also amplify your sickness, especially dopesick stomachs >.<.

    4.Psychedelics - SWIM on multiple occasions had taken large amounts of DXM the day after a large roxy dose. I find that this path can go two directions. You will either have a bad trip or a shitty trip because you feel like shit initially before starting, or more commonly you may have a good trip, and come to realize with yourself that your addiction isnt everything, and therefore have a mind settling experience which can really help amplify your chances of beating the dreaded withdrawel. SWIM also noticed the same on acid. However, as far as I am concerned, nobody should take shrooms in this condition. Youd really be asking for trouble.

    5.Opiates- Personally, I believe methadone is of no help at all. The withdrawal is worse for one, and on top of that I was perfectly functional on H or oxycodone. He cannot understand why he would make himself go through a more agonizing withdrawal period for absolutely no reason, when he could be high, do the same work just as efficient, and not withdraw so hard in the end. Suboxone on the other hand is good, however when using these drugs its as if your putting the problem off not solving it. Therefore I believe in just tapering himself off and not wasting his time.



    Once again, these are just opinions and im simply just curious if anyone else has experienced the same types of interactions or has more to add. Thank you!!
     
  2. hypernihl

    hypernihl Titanium Member

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    Totally agree, kratom is very useful for opiate withdrawal. I typically would take 1-1.5 g 3-4 per day of very high grade kratom. It worked like a charm. It did not seem to have much of a cross-tolerance, so my withdrawals weren't extended.

    Yep, absolutely useless for opiate detox. I actually got paradoxical effects, where my insomnia and anxiety were increased by the benzos. I once did a medical detox in a hospital and was given barbituates as opposed to benzos. So, there is something to this.

    One thing to add to the list is Clonidine. It's an alpha-adrenergic agonist typically used to treat hypertension. It works very well to treat opiate withdrawal symptoms. It does have a lot of side effects, but they certainly out way the effects of opiate withdrawal.

    There is all so loperamide, an opiate agonist, anti-diarrheal sold over the counter in the U.S.. People seem to have mixed reaction with it. I have found it to be very effective when taken with ~100mg of Quinine (can be found in low dose capsules in health food stores).

    Good list
     
  3. brettjv

    brettjv Titanium Member

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    I've really only basically gone through full w/d's one way ... that was getting off of subutex at 2mg/day (after OC bender and sub taper over last 7 months of a 4 year stint) and at .5mg/day (after 8 months on subs, no OC's, in fact, clean the prior 3 years).

    The drug regimen I've used is small doses of alcohol the first few days, before the real w/d's kick in. On day 3, switched to clonidine, neurontin, and methacarbamol (mild muscle relaxer), and used 10mg Ambien each night to sleep (typically 1 tablet for each 4 hour stint of sleep).

    Only one other thing I've tried, and that was ganja. And I found pot to basically suck for me in the bad w/d phase. Although I generally enjoy the spliff, it really just made my pain worse. I've also taken 2-4 imodium each day to get rid of the runs and stomach issues, that works a treat for that purpose.

    Other than that ... I couldn't tell ya for sure what works and what doesn't, but your description of what coke would be like sounds spot on. I would think it would SUUUUUCK.

    Welcome to the recovery forum by the way. How long you been 100% clean off of opioids at this point, if you don't mind my asking?
     
  4. CPC 93

    CPC 93 Newbie

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    Ill add that to the list good contribution. Ive seen a lot of people post questions about using other drugs for easing withdrawal but im surprised nobody has ever created a full on list.

    CPC 93 added 6 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

    Sorry I don't know how to edit posts including the first one i made. If someone could tell me that be great. I have only been off them for about 2 months but it has gotton a lot easier now then the first week. The sickness and depression was horrible. Believe me coke was the worst mistake and that what caused me to relapse the first few times i attempted to quit.
    I completely forgot about alcohol I wish i could add that too. My problem with alcohol was I drank too much and people recognize alcohol consumption so it was not something i could continue with work/ school etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  5. Struggling

    Struggling Newbie

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    I am currently in day 5 of withdrawals from opiates. After the first 2 days of pure hell and thinking I was gonna die.....every second seemed like an hour- intense hot flashes, my skin crawling...not too mention the unbearable stomach pains and trips to the bathroom every 10-15 minnntes, being exhausted but could not sleep....i almost gave up....but then i read on this site abut kratom. Luckily found it locally and it saved me. Almost every withdrawal symptom has subsided....but how long should i take the kratom?.......
    After 6 years of medical problems and being on high dose pain meds i never dreamed it would be this horrible to get off. I feel for every person going through this for whatever reason-(medical, recreational...whatever). Good luck to all...
     
  6. slay13

    slay13 Silver Member

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    I've said it many times before but I think it's worth saying it again: kratom is a miracule plant when it comes to opiate WDs. It saved my ass. It does cause mild WDs itself. Some people argue that they are horrible but I find it a lot easier to taper off of. Something else I find helpful, especially for those damn restless legs, is potassium and iron supplements. I think one of the causes of RLS is an iron deficiency and potassium is known to help with cramps. Running is also a great way to ease the pain. It sucks while doing it but even a ten minute jog makes me feel 100X better. I've yet to find anything to help with the cravings yet. Those have become the worst thing to deal with. Any suggestions?
     
  7. Struggling

    Struggling Newbie

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    How long should i take the kratom for?......i tried to take nothing today and I am almost as miserable as the first day......i thought by day 5 i wold feel somewhat better but this is not true!.....i am fixing to go gt my iguana some kratom so he can find a piece of mind in getting through this day without going completely insane!
     
  8. hypernihl

    hypernihl Titanium Member

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    How much have you been taking? If your taking larger doses you will need to taper down.
     
  9. RaoulDuke32

    RaoulDuke32 Silver Member

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    I think perhaps the reason that benzos dont help with your withdrawals is because you are a daily user already. Some people also get dysphoria in high doses, paradoxical reactions, etc.
    Personally ive found benzos to be the most help during early stage opiate withdrawal. The main problems are muscle cramps, stomache problems, and insomnia. All of those are helped by benzos.
    -As to the adderall - stimulants help while they are in effect, but they make the problem 10X worse when they wear off (in my experience). And for someone who isnt a big user of them, 10mg of dexamphetamine can keep me up or at least give me a restless night. When im in serious opiate detox, sleep is one of my biggest problems. To take something that will make it much harder to sleep and gain back some strength is a terrible idea.
    -Alcohol can help a little, but its in the same vein as benzos. Relaxing, a little analgesic, but overall dangerous and makes me sicker much of the time. If alcohol works to ease some of your w/ds, id try benzos and see if they dont work just as good with less side effects.
    -Psychedelics can give you insights as to why you may be using drugs, the underlying emotional problems you're masking, and a clear view of what to change. The problem is implementing these changes. Its easy to visualize quitting, its another thing to actually do it. Tripping always made me stave off using as much as i could for a while, but then id launch back into my addiction after a week or two. But then again, i never tried ibogaine. Iboga supposedly can take your body through a painful detox in a matter of days, as well as give you a new paradigm to live by without the drug. If done properly.
    Clonadine and atenolol can work if you are experiencing severe heart racing.
    -Kratom works good but only for a light opiate addiction. I dont think that kratom will suffice for people doing a gram+ a day of heroin or 300 mg + of oxycodone. It could help, but in severe cases its almost required to take buprenorphine or methadone and wean yourself down. I recommend bup because its a partial agonist and doesnt give the euphoia typical of other opiates, including methadone.

    Just thought id throw that out there, because we had a few nay sayers but no one saying benzos help for opiate w/d. For me, in the category of non-opiate meds to help with w/d, they are number one.
     
  10. Struggling

    Struggling Newbie

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    I have only been taking about3 grams 2X a day for 3 days......was hoping today would of been better....but no such luck. Its the feeling of wanting to jump out of my skin that makes it so unbearable....along with the no sleep. I dont have any support....my husband does not understand at all.....i tried to explain it to him but he says that must be true for hard core addicts....not for you thats been prescribed them. The same person helping me to get more when my month script ran out in less than two weeks.....right now it feels like there is no end in sight!....i came this far...i can't go back now!.....
     
  11. hypernihl

    hypernihl Titanium Member

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    Have to disagree, as I am not a daily user, nor have I ever been a regular user of Benzos.
    No real argument with you though. Every ones brain chemistry is different. They had the opposite effect for me.

    Sorry to hear your not getting the proper support you need. Those who have not been there do not understand!

    Kratom is difficult to discuss since the "potency" varies. Just try and stay at the lowest dose possible. Basically, try and keep a minimal functioning dose.

    Take just enough to keep your self functional, no more.

    Just use your own judgement to function in your daily life.
     
  12. brettjv

    brettjv Titanium Member

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    Yeah, struggling ... sorry to hear you're having a rough go of it. Tell your husband that the MEANS by which one acquires opiates makes NO difference. The 'reason' you took it makes NO difference. Your brain and body don't care about that crap, the opiate dependency develops regardless. Having a script, being in 'real pain', having a 'legit reason' ... none of that shit matters.

    Well, I take it back ... the only reason any of that MAY matter is that you MAY have an easier time STAYING off of dope moving forward if you were never taking it 'for kicks', and you never made any illicit 'connections'.

    But afa the actual acute detox phase goes ... naw. It pretty much sucks the same regardless of any of the particulars of 'why' the opiates were introduced to the body, including pieces of paper that are signed by a doctor and that perhaps an insurance co was kind enough to pay for.

    Whatever the 'excuse' was for taking the opiates, in the end, the proverbial piper must still get paid. And now, lucky you ... he's taking his pound of flesh from your sorry rear-end.

    I will also add ... sorry you got the 'itchy bones' going on ... I know that feeling too well, and it BLOWS hugely. It's like you wish you could rip your skeleton from it's poisoned, gelatinous prison of blood and flesh, and just scratch your bones themselves cause they ITCH. It's ... very disturbing.

    It's also TOTALLY normal for someone coming off of six years of 'high dose' pain killers. All those effects you describe ... that's what we pillheads and junkies call being 'dopesick' ... and they're universal effects. Pain all over, depression, diarrhea, runny eyes and nose, sneezing, horrible insomnia, RLS (esp. at night when you try to sleep, your legs may spasm and 'kick'), inability to regulate body temperature, colds sweats ... I could go on and on ... basically, you just feel right knackered in every regard, and pretty much wish someone would be so kind as to please just put a gun to your head and violently separate your brain from your body so that the misery will end.

    All that's 'normal', everyone here has had these symptoms, most of us more times than we care to count. But hey, you probably have a lot more empathy for opiate addicts than you ever did before I'd bet ... now that you see how fucking miserable a person gets when they try to quit this stuff, eh? ;)

    Anyways, good news is ... it's not life-threatening, and the worst effects will be over in a week. A week isn't that long in the overall scheme of things. Think how fast weeks normally go by ... but then again, as you've noted ... minutes feel like days when you're dopesick ... that's another of the many unpleasant side effects ;)

    If I were you, I'd taper down off the kratom (try to take a little less each day, and smaller doses at each go) over the next couple weeks ... the trick is to not take enough to make you feel at all 'good', just enough to keep you from the worst of the w/d's, and keep tapering down. That way when you quit your dosage is low, and you've already been through 'some' of the w/d effects the previous couple weeks.

    On the bad news front though ... ANY opioids is a hell of a lot more than NO opioids (and Kratom is an opioid, make no mistake ... it's not 'magic' ... you're just delaying the inevitable), esp. after 6 years. So you ARE going to go through a craptastic detox period no matter what when you stop ... it's not possible to avoid it, although some people claim you can ... I don't personally believe that.

    However, by diligently tapering, you can cause the suffering to be less acute, no question. It's worth the effort I think :)

    Oh yeah ... I'd talk to your doctor about comfort meds ... at the least try to get some Clonidine (it's a blood pressure medicine) as that does take some of the edge off. I also REALLY like to have Ambien to put me down at night (but only for night-time ... i.e. don't abuse it). Taking 2-3 Imodium (loperamide) in the morning REALLY helps with the stomach issues and runs ... Hot baths/showers also help, and you should stock up on Gatorade and Ensure-type nutritional beverages as often that's all you can get down your throat.

    It's also really key to keep oneself distracted with TV, Movies, music, internet ... try to do ANYthing but sit around and THINK. Thinking SUCKS when you're kicking, and is to be avoided via non-opioid distractions as much as possible.

    Best of luck, and do keep posting, both CPC and Struggling. You guys CAN do it, and we're here for you!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  13. NotSoberNotUsing

    NotSoberNotUsing Silver Member

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    I didnt see tramadol mentioned. Its so much easier to get it from a DR and 200-300 mg's will keep a mid sized habit at bay. Other than opiates nothing else really helps with a kick. Benzo's are ok but sometimes they just make me feel worse.
     
  14. Struggling

    Struggling Newbie

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    Today is day seven....still using kratom. I can say I got a few hours of decent sleep last nite, but woke up sneezing with an intense need to use the bathroom. I just want thi nightmare to end!....never thought I could come this far! Comforting to hear support!......it truly helped me out during my weakest moments.....thank u all!
     
  15. Struggling

    Struggling Newbie

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    Day 8...got about 5 hours asleep on and off.....morning was a littlebetter then yesterday.......still having bad hot flashes and intense need to use the bathroom after I wake up until i take my kratom....starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel......as each day gets a tad bit easier. I just wish my husband can be more understanding. I am trying to reduce my kratom intake to 4 grams of powder once in the morning to help with the withdrawal symptoms that drag me out of bed at an early hour.....

    Oh yeah....last nite I had a horrible case of itching that was incurable. Different from the feeling of wanting to jump out of my skin....it seemed evry part of my body itched and nothing would ease it....anyone ever had this? even like the bottom of my feet, inbetween my fingers.....made me feel CRAZY!....thank u all....and good luck to all!
     
  16. Struggling

    Struggling Newbie

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    Day 10.......each day is getting a little easier. I cant go back now! First time in 6 years i have been opiate clean for 10 days!