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    PLEASE HELP

What to do with oxycodone, MS Contin, and fentanyl? Ideas?

Discussion in 'Opiates & Opioids' started by Emo17, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. Emo17

    Emo17

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    It seems that despite being sick and in chronic pain for the last few years, lady luck finally shown her pretty face on SWIM the other day, when the "on-call" doctor at his doctor's office decided to address his need for painkilling by letting him "play around" with painkillers, and then see which works best.

    So, I has:

    Oxcodone, 5mg pills.

    MS Contin, 15mg timed release pills.

    Fentanyl patch, 12.5 mg (timed release).

    A few questions - first off, I feel like the starting doses of each of these medications (one pill/patch) is less than the "common dose."
    So, can someYou please tell swim what the common dose of each of these is?

    Secondly, I have only tried the Oxycodone so far, a max of three pills at once (15mg). I have noticed that these help his pain significantly, but that he is still very stressed and anxious, and that the supposed "euphoria" that comes along with these pills is very very subtle.

    Would swim have more luck if he snorted them? She has been told that Oxycodone is "hillbilly heroin," and that--when snorted--the effects are much better? Is this true? Can one please explain what's so different about snorting the powder from the pills versus simply swallowing them?
    Secondly, how much is a VERY safe starting dose when it comes to snorting, and what should SWIM expect in terms of different effects if she snorted said pills?

    Same question goes for the MS Contin, time released. If it doesn't give SWIM a euphoria, should he try to snort the powder? And how much would be safe?

    Lastly, the fentanyl patches. Is there a quantity of the gel that is actually safe to just eat? Like the size of a 3 poppy seeds glued together? Just a tiny little dot of the gel? Would that give Swim a Euphoria?

    PLEASE PLEASE advise me. Thank you very much.

    Also, if SWIM determines that oxycodone is what helps me the most, I will soon be getting oxycontin pills, instead of oxycodone. How much of that is safe to snort?
    Thank you

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2017
  2. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    You need click THIS link to tell you the relevant information. it will take you to the "complete list of opiate dosages" section of the forum.

    LOL@ the emo thing.
    Hope this has been of help. :)
     
  3. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    The opiate tolerance from the tramadol is unlikely because tramadol works in a slightly different way. If one is not feeling anything special from those dosages one could work their way up in dosage a little until one finds a comfortable spot. One may have a bad reaction to Morphine and thus the throwing up - it is not uncommon, which is why other opiate analgesics have been synthesized to combat this. Oxycodone (Oxycontin) sounds like it is more agreeable to you's system so I would recommend that 20mgs in an immediate release (OxyNorm, OxyCodone IR) might work a lot better. SWIM personally thinks that 40mg for the controlled release is a good starting point but doesnt want to recommend that to anyone just in case it is not right for them. Opiate tolerance and effect is slightly different in everyone. And there is always the broader spectrum to consider. Example: a friend of mine only smokes MJ and never does opiates. He got hit by a car. 5mg IV in the hospital of Morphine did nothing for him, they gave him another 5mg and still nothing - no pain relief and definitely no euphoria. A little later on they gave him 20mg of OxyCodone IR and he was not only throwing up, but loving it! (lol - anyone whom has had this experience will know exactly what one is talking about - lol)

    Anyway, here is a quick rundown of what could theoretically be done:
    1: OxyContin (OxyCodone Continuous release) Time release coating can be removed and pill crushed, powder snorted or smoked (tastes really bad and is not efficient when smoked).
    2: MScontin (Morphine Sulphate Continuous Release) Same with the OxyContin but when smoked it is awesome, but railing it produces the best result.
    3: OxyNorm (Normal OxyCodone) immediate release capsules. Can be snorted but its a hell of alot of powder. better just to drop one (or two).
    4: OxyContin IR (OxyCodone Immediate Release) same as above just a different name.

    Tell You to be careful and take note of safe dosages and always go up by smaller increments. Being alive but in a little pain is better than being dead from OD.

    Hope this has been of help. :)
     
  4. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    if there is tylenol (acetamataphen or whatever its called), do NOT fucking snort . It will burn and hurt. before snorting the contin, are you opiate tolerant? because one wouldnt want to od. So why not see how oral effects one before thinking it will take another method to get one good. No sense in dying. Esp with fentnayl..... no tea! I cant believe the varying degrees of opiates you have there.
     
  5. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    I just finished your post. Hell no dont . Youll wind up dead boy! Mscontin is time released morphine. 7.5 mgs of oxycodone equals 1 mg of morphine or something like that. So if you only have 15 mgs of oxycodone, i think it would be unwise to start thinking about snorting it. Drinking grapefruitjuice might be a better starting point. Fentynal is even stronger than morphine. So eating the gel WOULD kill you. You gotta be careful man. Read up before using oneself as a human guinea pig.....
     
  6. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    Not safe due to the quick action of smoking and your not tolerant. Wait a while. Smoking and injecting are for people who became tolerant and couldnt get high another way im sure. You have choices and prescriptions.
     
  7. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    Tylenol is just paracetemol and codeine, some brands are asprin / codeine and some are ibuprofen and codeine.

    The reason those would burn because of those adulterants. both OXyContin and OxyNorm / Oxycodone IR are safe to snort but taste bad when smoked (even though it still works quite well.) These are the drugs of which the thread starter was speaking)and others), not tylenol. SWI-emo17 also mentioned that taking those doses orally was not doing anything for him which is why the other careful dosages were mentioned.

    Acetaminophen is called paracetemol outside of the US. doesnt generally burn when snorted, :crazy My friends and I used to do it as kids thinking they were big bad drug users. :eek:. The asprin will MOST DEFINATLY burn when snorted. One does not know about ibuprofen but assumes it would not be a good thing.

    Hope this has in some way helped. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2007
  8. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    well first off, paracetemol or acetaphetamen, not with codeine wont get one high. Second, its not water soluble so it wont pass through the nasal membranes and thus be a waste and cause any oxycodone mixed with it to be a waste too. 3rd, smoking any of these pills is kinda a waste. While I belive some people can get high, its probably a waste. I dont know for sure. I remember looking at the Merk Index and seeing that morphine destroys at a certain termp. I seem to remember thinking that smoking it would work. Maybe i am wrong?

    But as for the oxycodone and such. In the U.S. most of the prescribed oxycodone is mixed with acetemetaphen. So since its adulterated, snorting would burn, there would be alot to snort, and the adulterant would most likely just coat the nasal membrane and not allow the oxy to go through. RIght?
    And as for snorting motrin and acet and aspirin and aleve, theres no reason to? Theres no reason to smoke it either?
     
  9. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    Exactly right

    Oxycodone however, IS water soluble, which is why CWE works.

    Smoking OxyContin (which has no tylenol in it) tastes very bad but is definitly not a waste. However it is more efficient to snort it (better high etc).

    Taken from Wiki -
    "commonly prescribed for the relief of moderate to heavy pain, either with inert binders (Oxycodone, Oxycontin)" [NOTE: these are the pill binders for the aforementioned pills aquired by the SWIemo17]

    "or supplemental binders such as acetaminophen (Percocet, Tylox) and aspirin (Percodan)." [NOTE: the types of pill You is meaning.]

    OxyNorm and OxyCodone-IR are both mixed with an adulterated flower starch which makes it taste fairly bad and makes the bulk of the powder large. Oxycodone is not anywhere near 7x more potent than Morphine though. its more like 2:1, not much more potent at all.

    Again just mentioning that the OP never mentioned any of the pills containing tylenol (percocet etc) but did however mention the commonly prescribed painkillers which are given for moderate to heavy pain such as OxyContin, MScontin and Fentanyl. You is definately right in advising cautions with opiates for it is the prudent thing to do, one mentioned that a little pain is better than being dead from an OD. One is also right that there is no reason to smoke or snort acetaminophen, asprin or any other mild (and more commonly pill bonding) analgesic. They do nothing at all.

    Hope this has been of help :)
     
  10. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    I think were pretty much on the same page just some misunderstandings
    1. Oxycodone is water soluble. So your right with coldwater extractions. I was refering to snorting it.
    2nd, I assumed that since he said oxycodone and not "oxycontin" or anything else it was mixed with tylenol. I think we should find that out. Because that would put an end to whether one would snort it or not.
    3rd. I didnt say oxycodone was stronger than morphine. I quoted a thread on here about potency. 1 mg of morphine equals 7 mgs of oxycodone not the otherway around. Its definetely not stronger than morphine.
    4. On top of not smoking tylenol and such, I was talking about burning opiates. Wouldnt it waste it due to the opiate alkaloid being destroyed by heat? I read in the merk index that the temp of destruction was low
    5. He said oxycodone not oxycontin or oxycontin immediate release. In America, when one is refering to oxycodone, it is more often than not mixed with acetaphetamon.

    so hopefully this clears us up and puts us on the same page.
     
  11. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    yea, pretty much the same page with only 1 issue.

    1.5mg of Oxycodone is the equivilent of 3mg of morphine, take a look at the comparison chart HERE

    One can also find the comparisons and Bioavailability of Oxycodone if one types it into WIKI also. The main difference for Oxycodone is that it is available by the body immediately rather than having to go through the bodies conversion process. The bioavailability is greater than Hydromorphone, making it a clear winner over Morphine (which is still the standard).

    There were other posts (must have been removed by moderator, Confirmation needed?) which stated exactly what SWIemo17 had. What happened to those posts?

    But one agrees on all other points what youou make.:thumbsup:
     
  12. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    Hmm. While i found bioavailability charts, Im going to have to find a cited source on that. because im almost certain that morphine has more analgesic value than oxycodone and the wikipedia did not cite a source. Ill try and find one and if i find something that agrees with you, ill be sure to post it as well to validate you. I just have this aching feeling that im right but cant prove until later.

    My thoughts
    1. I know I saw a chart somewhere whether in class or here. just cant remember 100% for sure
    2. If oxycodone is strnger analgesic than morphine, morphine would be prescribed much more. But oxy is. Esp with termanilly ill patients and such. So it makes me really think morphine is stronger

    so Ill look later i gotta run now

    Buprenorphine
    Oral: 15%
    Sublingual: 30%-50%
    Intramuscular: 68%

    Codeine
    Oral: 60-90%
    Rectal: about 90%

    Dihydrocodeine
    Oral: 20%

    Fentanyl
    Oral: 30%
    Buccal: 50% (absorbed through the mouth lining, not swallowed)
    Transdermal: 92%

    Heroin
    Oral: 35%
    Smoked: 52%
    Intramuscular: 85%
    Hydrocodone
    Oral: 50-60%

    Hydromorphone

    Oral: around 51.35%, some reports say 10-65% but this range is awfully wide.
    Intranasal: 54.4%
    Rectal: 36.33, up to 60% in the source I used.

    Meperidine
    Oral: 50-55%
    Rectal: 55%
    Intramuscular: 80-85%

    Methadone
    Oral: 70%-80%

    Morphine

    Oral: 40%
    Insufflated: 10% alone, 60% with a chitosan solution. But I think this number should be higher. Can anyone find any articles that give alternative measures?
    Intramuscular: 70-70% estimated
    Rectal: 70-90% One study says 27% in a parental solution, however!
    Subcutaneous: 60%

    Oxycodone

    Oral: 60-87% (due to low first-pass metabolism).
    Insufflated: One study says 45%. However anecdotal evidence says that it may be higher than this number.
    Rectal: 61.6% in one study.

    Oxymorphone
    Oral: 10-20%
    Insufflated: ~40%

    Pentazocine
    Oral: 20%

    Propoxyphene
    Oral: 30-70% (This is quite a wide range. SWIM suspects its closer to 30% but has no other sources at the moment to confirm this.)

    Tramadol
    Oral:70%
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2011
  13. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    One is fairly sure of this but will also have a look, even ones self can be wrong so one is not saying he is right all the time (sorry if it had come across that way).

    unsure why but one had another doctor friend say that the 80mg Oxycontin tablets are the same (for medical potency value) as the 100mg MScontin, this seems to be contradictory also to ones own findings of the 2:1 ratio.

    Will be glad to find out for once and all what the true value is. Has been a fun discussion and SWIwe will get to the bottom of this :) cheers.
     
  14. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    good conversion here at Medicalc
    Seems to enforce the initial though that a 2:1 ratio was indeed the right answer but one is also going to keep looking.

    One entered 80mg oxycontin PO (means orally) and it converted it to 160mg of Morphine IV/IM seems strange to me that an oral dosage would be the equivalent of a higher IV/IM dosage in this case so one is going to keep looking as stated.

    In the next table, One comes across even more problems. The 2:1 ratio seems to go the other way but only for oral Vs IM/IV. Example: OxyContin 80mg Oral would be the equivalent of 40mg Morphine delivered IM/IV [this makes more sense to one] and 80mg OcyContin OP when converted to Morphine OP (MScontin) is 120mg [this also makes more sense, although lower than one expected.]
    This table is HERE

    In the next table from the same site they seem to contradict themselves a little by stating the following information in their equianalgesic table

    Morphine
    PO
    30–60 mg

    Oxycodone
    PO
    15-30 mg (20 mg)

    This seems to say that 30-60mg Morphine PO is equal to 15-30mg of Oxycontin PO.
    This equianalgesic table is HERE

    This next table seems to support the statements above but still not quite the same for orally delivered Morphine Vs orally delivered OxyCodone. Click HERE for this next Equianalgesic chart.

    Oh one forgot to add some information from youour previous post. Opiates are destroyed (just like youou said) by vaporization at approx 82.6 Celsius, But This is why smoking works, when something is vaporized it turns into a vapor which is then inhaled. This is the same reason DiacetylMorphine / Morphine / Opium / etc etc can all be smoked with an indirect flame.

    Hope this helps. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2017
  15. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    alright. I have this figured out I believe because I cant find that stupid converter i saw here. I found another converter and did some thinking

    Not taking bioavailability in account, if both pills are swallowed, oxy is stronger per mg. This is due to the relatively low bioavailability of morphine. so 1 mg of m = .67 of oxy according to that
    However, up the nose or butt since the bioavailability jumps 60% means that .2 or somehting like that mgs of morphine would equal .67 oxy.
    Injecting is 100% and immediete effect which adds like 70% to what it normally is on top of not passing the liver
    Oxy adds like 10% and immediate so morphine is much stronger

    Oral oxy is stronger than oral morphine. But since morphine can be substantially stronger if missused, i believe thats why

    Does that make sense?
     
  16. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    It does. However, taking into account that many prefer Oxy over Morph even on the streets (Oxy being lovingly nicknamed "hillbilly heroin") You is not taking into account the IV application of Oxycodone. Ones guess is that in either instance if it were taken the same way, either orally for both or IV for both the ratio's would still remain relatively the same. Most conversion and medical sites state no dosage for Oxycodone in an IV application because they either choose not to show the data and mostly (always actually one thinks) never use it in that way in hospitals.

    What one mainly doesn't understand is the "substantially stronger if misused" part of ones theories. Mg to Mg comparison is exactly that no matter which substance is the one being misused. OD will end in the same result, and because of the bioavailability one would asume that it would be easier to OD on Oxycodone rather than Morphine unless there is a ceiling effect as with codeine which Oxycodone does not have.

    Either way, both are extremely bad if misused, both are to be experimented with using caution if one is going to do so and both are an Opiate of similar to same value for abuse and addiction.

    It has been fun :)
     
  17. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    while i still havent had time to sit down, ive been really busy heres what i got.

    http://www.headachedrugs.com/archives/la_opioids2.html

    shows morphine being better at pain relief than oxy. I am going on medline tomorrow and taking care of this. As for the before paragraph. Alright
    1. Heroin addicts prefer morphine over oxycodone that is because
    morphine oral=305
    injected=100% so its a huge jump in how much mgs reach the brain
    oxycodone 90 injected 100
    not alot.

    The reason I say morphine has more of a potential to be misused is due to this fact. When shot up, its much much stronger than vicoden or oxycodone due to this huge increase in utilization. it also gets more bioavailability when crushed, put in water and put in ones ass. also, due to heroin addicts wanting morphine as their second choice drug, the demand and deversion is huge. Orally, morphine is garbage. But when the bioavalability is equal, that would mean morphine is stronger mg for mg. And also, that study is just a pain relief study.
     
  18. samuraigecko

    samuraigecko Palladium Member

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    mmm, but headache is an obscure affliction and sometimes opiates do nothing for it. Other drugs have been found to be far more effective. The bioavailability of Oxycodone when IV is the same as Morphine so the ratio would remain the same.

    The following is just one example of many, SWIM also knows this to be true from being an addict himself. Morphine, of course, is the gold standard in which everything else is compared however other drugs out there are far better and far stronger. IV oxycodone is stronger mg for mg, and Orally Oxycodone is stronger mg for mg. The next link is only one of many one can show.

    [SIZE=-1]Oral cancer,and morphine does not,IV morphine is not immediatley pleasant whereas IV Oxycodone is comparable to Heroin Drug abuse. ...
    http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/43388 - 350k -Cached - Similar pages


     
  19. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    I dont think we understand eachother. Maybe anecdotally for pleasantness, oxy is more enjoyable. However, heroin addicts, according to several accounts of read and people swim knows, seek morphine out rather than anything else if heroin isnt available. As for IVing. Oxy is not stronger mg for mg considering its bioavailability shot up 75% while oxys only 10%. Drugs stronger than morphine

    from wikipedia
    Morphine is a highly-addictive substance, both psychologically and physically, with an addiction potential comparable to that of heroin. In a study comparing the physiological and subjective effects of heroin and morphine administered intravenously in post-addicts, the post-addicts showed no preference for one or the other of these drugs when administered on a single injection basis. Equipotent doses of these drugs had quite comparable action time courses when administered intravenously, and on this basis there was no difference in their ability to produce feelings of "euphoria," ambition, nervousness, relaxation, drowsiness, or sleepiness.[20] Although the heroin abstinence syndrome was of shorter duration than that of morphine, the peak intensity was quite comparable for the two drugs. Data acquired during short-term addiction studies did not support the statement that tolerance develops more rapidly to heroin than to morphine. These findings have been discussed in relation to the physiochemical properties of heroin and morphine and the metabolism of heroin. When compared to other opioids -- hydromorphone, fentanyl, oxycodone, and meperidine, post-addicts showed a strong preference for heroin and morphine over the others, suggesting that heroin and morphine are more liable to abuse and addiction. Morphine and heroin were also much more likely to produce feelings of "euphoria", and other subjective effects when compared to most other opioid analgesics.[21][22]

    there sources
    1. ^ 1 National Institute of Mental Health, Addiction Research Center, U. S. Public Health Service Hospital, Lexington, Kentucky
    2. ^ Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeutics, Vol. 133, Issue 3, 388-399, 1961
    on top of my argument that morphine wouldnt be used in hospice care, oxy would, here is another argument

    Fentanyl is an opioid analgesic with a potency eighty times that of morphine. Fentanyl has an LD50 of 3.1 milligrams per kilogram in rats, and, 0.03 milligrams per kilogram in monkeys. The LD50 in humans, by intravenous injection, is 0.2-1 milligrams. In the United States, fentanyl is a Schedule II drug.

    Here is another wikipedia article

    Hydromorphone's oral to intravenous effectiveness ratio is 5:1 and equinalgesia conversion ratio (hydromorphone HCl to anhydrous morphine sulphate, IV, SC, or IM) is 8:1 and is about 4:1 orally. This means that 30 mg of immediate-release morphine by mouth is similar in analgesic effect to 7.5 mg of hydromorphone by mouth, 10 mg of morphine by injection, and 1.5 mg of hydromorphone by injection. These doses also correspond to about 30 mg of hydrocodone, 24 mg of oxycodone, 200 mg of codeine, 135 mg of dihydrocodeine, 20 mg of dihydromorphine, 15 mg of nicomorphine, 12 mg of heroin and 60 mg of extended-release morphine via the oral route. These figures which can vary from person to person, especially with oral adminstration, on account of such things as relative and absolute levels of some liver enzymes, system pH, and others.

    I just know for a fact that when bioavalability is not an issue, morphine is stronger than oxy which is stronger than hydro which is stronger than codeine which is stronger than darvocet blah blah. Fentynal is stronger than hydromorpone which is stronger than heroing (but not as pleasing due to morphine passing the blood brain barrier so quickly and being turned back into, you guessed it, morphine) which is stronger than morphine

    Morphine is the gold standard. Thats what they base all this stuff off of it. And while your wikipedia states for some reason that its stronger than morphine its wrong. You have to be careful on there and make sure the facts they say
    A. are cited
    B. arent way off

    Because just from the common sense side i meanoxy would be used in hospice more than morphine and demerol. But its not. You know what Im saying?
     
  20. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    However, I want to again say that orally, oxycodone is stronger. Its bioavalability is much stronger and I totally agree its two times stronger than oral morphine. Im just arguing in a bioavalability free world where all drugs are IVed. You know what I mean?