1. Dear Drugs-Forum readers: We are a small non-profit that runs one of the most read drug information & addiction help websites in the world. We serve over 4 million readers per month, and have costs like all popular websites: servers, hosting, licenses and software. To protect our independence we do not run ads. We take no government funds. We run on donations which average $25. If everyone reading this would donate $5 then this fund raiser would be done in an hour. If Drugs-Forum is useful to you, take one minute to keep it online another year by donating whatever you can today. Donations are currently not sufficient to pay our bills and keep the site up. Your help is most welcome. Thank you.
    PLEASE HELP

Other - Wtf?:Choosing hydrocodone over morphine? how?

Discussion in 'Hydrocodone' started by 100mg Methylphenidate, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. 100mg Methylphenidate

    100mg Methylphenidate Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    117
    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    So swim came across some morphine tablets. He let his dealer know, and his dealer got a bulk supply to sell to some of his pill addicted friends. These people will pay a lot of money to get vicodin, and that's mostly what they take. Just tons and tons of vicodin.

    The morphine pills are 30mg instant release. Swim checked them out, they're the real deal and they messed swim up.

    The dealers friends didn't like the morphine pills at all. They claim they would much rather have a single Watson 540(the blue pills with 10mg hydrocodone, 500mg APAP) than one 30mg morphine pill.

    My question is, how is this possible? I am confused as hell. We're thinking it's got to be a placebo effect. Even a narcotic converter will at minimum rank morphine as potent as hydrocodone. So basically, one of those morphine pills should be like taking 3 of the 10/500 hydrocodone/apap pills. Now the dealer is frustrated and is trying to get rid of them cheaper but none of his friends still want to buy them.

    I am thinking the fact that the hydrocodones are bigger pills gives some sort of placebo. Also, these people take hydrocodone at least 2 or 3 times a week and well pay 30-50% more for the pills than normal if they can't find them. Any other ideas?
     
  2. ScorpioSunshine

    ScorpioSunshine Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    143
    Messages:
    203
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    While my friend I don't have any official ideas, she says that her garden gnome also prefers hydrocodone over morphine. Why? I don't know and I say the garden gnome can't really explain it. Morphine seems to have a much different effect on the gnome, where the Watsons (or hydrocodone in general) seem to give a better euphoric, fuzzy feeling, morphine just doesn't do it for the gnome and seems to cause more edginess and less euphoria. The gnome is very experienced, too.

    Perhaps it's not really a placebo effect, just more of a matter of different substances affecting different people in different ways. It could be a group mentality thing, too, where one person enjoys or gets a better effect from one over the other, and the herd follows. I amn't sure, but she knows her gnome prefers hydros and knows that it's definitely not a placebo effect.

    (Also, I was dealing with stronger morphine -- 60mg! and believes she had some 80s as well. )
     
  3. Matt The Funk

    Matt The Funk Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    180
    Messages:
    521
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    from U.S.A.
    Not placebo, I forget the exact reason but I am pretty sure they have a slightly different mechanism of action that can account for certain reasons one may perfer it to morphine, SWIM also personally perfers hydrocdone 10x over to morphine sulfate, but I am too lazy to find it(info), just informing you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  4. OhCasey

    OhCasey Palladium Member

    Reputation Points:
    304
    Messages:
    578
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2007
    from U.S.A.
    Not all opiates give the same type of effects even at equal potency. Swim and every lab rat hes friends with prefer Hydrocodone over morphine. Morphine for swim produces mores cns depressing effects but lacks anywhere near the level of euphoria that Hydrocodone produces. My friend constantly wants to trade his 60 mg morphine pills 1 for 1 for swims 10/325 Hydrocodone. Swim just doesnt find the pills pleasureable enough to trade a 10 mg hydro for a 60 mg morphine XR, even when he defeats the time release and plugs, snorts or chews them.
     
  5. LinusMundane

    LinusMundane Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    9
    Messages:
    137
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    36 y/o from U.S.A.
    I will never understand anyone wanting hydro over anything, though I do feel like he's missing out on something based on what other swimmers here post but morphine is nice, oxy is nicer and hydro has never done a damn thing for him.
     
  6. Herbal Healer 019

    Herbal Healer 019 Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    529
    Messages:
    1,131
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    from france
    Some1 Who Aint Me would def. go for the 30mg morphine sulfates over a single 10mg hydrocodone & thinks the fact that any1 would rather have a single 10mg hydrocodone over 30mg morphine is crazy as hell.

    SWAM personally likes hydrocodone over morphine simply because its more a more upbeat & largely less nauseating high when compared to morphine. Morphine is a very euphoric high but in more of a downer/sedating way whereas hydrocodone is more of a social/upbeat opiate high...this may be why ppl are prefering the hydrocodone over the morphine, but it's really all about opinion.

    SWAM would say boost the price on the hydrocodones @ a high enough price to get the morphine pills for free & save the morphine pills for personal use if You can't get rid of the morphines.

    FYI: Selling drugs of any kind is bad & I dont condone the sale of any illegal substances
     
  7. Gradient

    Gradient Chem|EB|DMT

    Reputation Points:
    5,535
    Messages:
    791
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    from earth
    It's important to note that hydrocodone is converted to hydromorphone, otherwise known as Dilauded, in the liver upon ingestion. Theoretically, hydromorphone should be quite a bit more potent than morphine due to mu-opioid receptor interaction (I've read 5 times as potent, but I have an issue with this).

    I think that genetic differences come into play regarding the differences in preference between individuals. The conversion of hydrocodone to hydromorphone is preformed by an enzyme in the liver; different people may have different amino acid sequences in their genome that will code for different proportions of the enzymes found in the liver. Therefore, different individuals will preform the conversion at different rates and produce varying quantities of hydromorphone due to lower enzyme-substrate interaction.

    Some studies have suggested that morphine is actually more efficient at binding mu-opioid receptors than hydrocodone, while most suggest that hydrocodone is more akin to highly potent thebaine derivatives like oxycodone in potency.

    In other words, there will never be a consensus as to which is the most potent - but a majority of the planet would agree that hydrocodone is stronger.
     
  8. 100mg Methylphenidate

    100mg Methylphenidate Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    117
    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    Hm. I read somewhere that hydrocodone used to be considered equal potency as morphine, and recently was dropped down to 2/3 the potency of morphine.

    For swim, morphine is a lot less sedating and more euphoric than hydrocodone. There's also a lot less nausea.

    Thanks for your replies though. Swim and I were definitely confused beyond belief.

    On a side note. One nice thing about the morphine over the hydrocodone is that it's possible to insufflate the morphine. Not that snorting is the best route of administration in either case, but if one is looking for quicker onset and has money/pills to blow, it's a nice advantage.
     
  9. EyesOfTheWorld

    EyesOfTheWorld Silver Member R.I.P.

    Reputation Points:
    708
    Messages:
    1,387
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    And then there is the bioavailability issue. When a morphine tablet is eaten, only about 20-30% of the actual drug is absorbed, so yous 30 mg morphines would FEEL like 8-10mgs if eaten, and I even would prefer 10 mgs of hydro to 10 mgs of morph.
    The magic of morphine is only released through insufflation, orally it is an incredibly ineffective substance (consider the fact that heroin is just diacetylated morphine, and NO ONE uses heroin orally)
    I am guessing by the fact that yous dealer's customers only make small hydro buys twice a week that they are not addicts, merely recreational users/borderline habitual. When I was back in that phase he would have preferred the hydro too.
    I would advise You and dealer to just keep the morphs for headstash, the custys are obviously too naieve to see the good deal being offered.
     
  10. 100mg Methylphenidate

    100mg Methylphenidate Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    117
    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    Ah. Thank you. I got confused again and thought morphine bioavailability was lower insufflated than oral but I was thinking of oxycodone. I'm having an off day today...XD
     
  11. Ilsa

    Ilsa Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    1,838
    Messages:
    923
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    from Tennessee, U.S.A.
    according to Davis, Glare and Hardy in Opiods in Cancer Pain: both bind the same receptors, but these receptors are g-protein coupled receptors, and different ligands can elicit different effects because of potential differential downstream (of receptor binding) chemical actions.

    In addition, metabolites can have effects, and each opioid has its own more or less unique set. last, but not least (and I think has been mentioned already in this thread) hydrocodone has similar effects to oxycodone on the receptors it binds and is well-absorbed in the gi tract, whereas morphine is not highly bioavailable orally, and so tanslates to lower overall levels (as when compared to hydrocodone).
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  12. trannyboy

    trannyboy Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    161
    Messages:
    144
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Yeah the oral availablity for morphine is quite low and less then 1% is normally converted to hydromorphone. In fact the urine drug test allows for no more then 5% hydromorphone to morphine in the system as the cut off to determine if someone is using hydromorphone in addition to morphine. Morphine has a larger negative side effect panel and produces less euphoria then hydrocodone especially in the non opiate niave community. Then you have to take into account how each individual's body works, I know I don't bother with morphine because it has very little effect for their body.

    Then of course everyone has their ideal drug choice and very few people will choose anything other then their ideal if it is available. You also have the placebo effect as in if they believe it won't work then by golly they are right it won't work. SWIM's advice save the morphine for when the dealer can't get anything else at the moment. Then have him talk it up like it is god's gift to humanity and they will buy it sure as the sun will rise tomorrow and probably like it.

    trannyboy
     
  13. ConcertaXL

    ConcertaXL Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    224
    Messages:
    146
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    26 y/o
    It's not all about potency... once you have enough opiate to match your tolerance, taking more will often not get you higher and can increase the side effects. The complexities of how opiates react with receptors in the brain are not explicated by a potency "league table" intended for converting between one pharm and another for pain relief.
    Morphine is the gold standard of analgesia, but it can make people feel too zombie-like because of its strength. Hydrocodone on the other hand is often more euphoric, although this is more to do with the chemical itself than the conversion to hydromorphone (only -10% of it is metabolized into HM, in the same way oxy partially metabolizes into oxymorphone.)
     
  14. Gradient

    Gradient Chem|EB|DMT

    Reputation Points:
    5,535
    Messages:
    791
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    from earth
    ConcertaXL,

    What else is there to hydrocodone, other than its conversion to hydromorphone, that is significant here? - could you be more specific? Actually, the conversion of hydrocodone to hydromorphone sums up the compound's more subjectively reported euphoric effects pretty nicely - when comparing hydromorphone to morphine, hydromorphone has a higher affinity and efficacy at the mu-opioid receptor. It would therefore be expected to have a greater 'strength' than morphine. In fact, I've read from some sources (though this could easily be mistaken) that the other metabolite of hydrocodone - noroxyhydrocodone - isn't actually psychoactive. The conversion is sufficient to describe the differences in effects, and the 10% conversion rate is going to vary between individuals.

    Since when is morphine the 'gold standard of analgesia'? - in what setting? There is no cure-all to pain, either in the doctor's office or prescriptions at home. Hell, in the dentist's office, intravenous demerol (a completely synthetic opiate) is the convention. It's always nice to site a source of data when making characterizations like 'can make people feel too zombie-like because of its strength' - what does this statement really mean? That morphine has a greater strength then hydromorphone? I'm confused...

    -G
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  15. 100mg Methylphenidate

    100mg Methylphenidate Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    117
    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ld+standard+of+analgesia+morphine&btnG=Search

    There are a lot of places saying that morphine is the gold standard. I got IV'd morphine at the hospital for his kidney stone. I think morphine is used a lot to compare other pain medications potency. I've heard oxycodone is 1.5-2 times stronger than 'morphine' and hydrocodone is 2/3 - 1 x the potency of 'morphine.' And why is demerol used in the dentists office? Swim's never had any type of opiate pain relief from the dentist, only some vicodin the oral surgeon gave him. Which did not help his pain at allllllll and they wouldn't give him anything stronger.
     
  16. Gradient

    Gradient Chem|EB|DMT

    Reputation Points:
    5,535
    Messages:
    791
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    from earth
    100mg Methylphenidate,

    A google search isn't data. If one switched ibuprofen for morphine, similar results come up. You, and ConcertaXL, are both correct in saying that morphine is most widely used to alleviate pain in surgical settings. Perhaps I miscommunicated my point: What exactly is this point supposed to communicate? Strength? If it is supposed to express that most of the medical community 'trusts' the effects of morphine, then sure, I suppose that's correct. My point: It simply says nothing about the compound's inherent strength.

    Yes, morphine is almost always used to compare the effects of other opiate compounds; it was the compound used to first discover the mu-opioid receptor.

    If you go ahead and use your google search method, search demerol denstists - I got 31,600, surely most of them garbage, but plenty of cases.

    -G
     
  17. 100mg Methylphenidate

    100mg Methylphenidate Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    117
    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    from U.S.A.
    I wasn't using that as proof. I was just pointing out that it's posted all over the internet at various sources. Not that they're necessarily the most reliable ones. Such as wikipedia's morphine article. Nor am I suggesting morphine is the best drug for pain relief. I was just suggesting that's why one might have came to that conclusion that morphine is the gold standard of anything.
     
  18. ConcertaXL

    ConcertaXL Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    224
    Messages:
    146
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    26 y/o
    Gradient, regarding your criticisms of my post:
    1)Intravenous meperidine? This drug is very rarely used due to severe toxicity and side effects, the worst of any common opiate, and the fact it is often insufficient for the category of pain it was prescribed for. I have never heard of it being a "convention" in the 21st century for any type of medical situation.
    2)Morphine on the other hand is the PROTOTYPICAL painkiller, the one generally given across the world, with a place on the WHO essential drugs list, the first opiate drug given for pain a century before many current synthetics were even invented, the strongest and major constituent of the natural opium poppy and universally recognized even among the non-drug-educated hoi polloi. One google search is NOT reliable data but when it returns a number of medically reliable websites written by professionals which all use the phrase "gold standard", the combination of these is data to support me. Morphine making people feel like zombies is from a number of anecdotal sources, and does not suggest it is stronger than hydromorphone but 200mg pills exist for morph so higher doses could be a factor.
     
  19. nateup

    nateup Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    14
    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    from U.S.A.
    Its all about the route.
    From my fish's hospital exeriences, morphine does seem to be the standard IV pain med. When my fish wasnt responding to the morphine sufficiently, guess what they gave him as an alternative? Demerol!

    Morphine sucks orally, but is a diff story IV (or IN actually). As for comparing effects with hydro... my fish finds morphine to be more euphoric and "feel good" but hydro to be more "stoning" maybe?

    He can't really compare effects orally, since he finds morphine to be basically a waste orally, he rarely uses it that way.

    Now days he prefers about 20mg of hydro orally, with around 60mg of morphine snorted, at the end of the day when his 110mg of methadone is wearing off... when he can afford it.
     
  20. Lady Codone

    Lady Codone Titanium Member

    Reputation Points:
    891
    Messages:
    927
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    from U.S.A.
    Some opiates are more potent but less euphoric and vice versa. SWIM for instance feels that poppy tea, which contains morphine, codeine, and several other opiates is much stronger than hydrocodone, but far less "fun". She would take pills over pods any day, no matter that the pills provide a much shorter, less intense high. Of course everyone has their own preferences, but there's even oxycontin addicts who prefer oxy over heroin, which is supposed to be the holy grail of opiates. Go figure.

    There's just somthin' about hydrocodone.